[Wg-mwp] [Ext] Re: [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme
Nigel Hickson
nigel.hickson at icann.org
Tue Jun 4 12:08:30 EDT 2019
Lynn
Good afternoon; thank you for reaching out on this. I had lost track on where we were. Irrespective of where the WG work has moved; I still think there is real work to be done on the multi-year Framework; will non-MAG members still be able to have an input?
Best
Nigel
-----Original Message-----
From: "Lynn St.Amour" <Lynn at Internet-Matters.org>
Date: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 at 11:44
To: wg-mwp <wg-mwp at intgovforum.org>
Subject: [Ext] Re: [Wg-mwp] [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme
Hello,
while this WG is not re-charted for 2019 (moved to the full MAG), I do think it is appropriate to follow up on this discussion ahead of this weeks MAG meeting.
I believe the only open question re the 'draft Programme Framework' is whether the graphic or the language (as Flávio suggested) should be updated. Thoughts? Has it been updated?
Lynn
> On Apr 5, 2019, at 4:53 PM, Flávio Rech Wagner <flavio at inf.ufrgs.br> wrote:
>
> Dear Lynn and colleagues
>
> Your previous response to Lorena and Luca, as well as Siva's response to Marilyn, should have been sufficient to make it clear that there is a huge misunderstanding in the interpretation of the graphic and that the WG-MWP is not proposing to give to the MAG any oversight over the work of NRIs and DCs.
>
> I do not agree with Marilyn's suggestion regarding a withdrawal of the graphic. This would be an exaggerated solution to a simple issue.
>
> Nevertheless, I think we can reduce negative reactions to the graphic (even if caused by a misunderstanding of its meaning) if we agree to replace "MAG approval process" with another language. Another solution would be to complement the graphic with a more detailed explanation of the "MAG approval process", clearly stating that NRIs and DCs are autonomous in their internal works.
>
> Best,
>
> Flávio
>
>
>
>> Dear WG members,
>>
>> would very much like to hear from WG members on the graphic and specifically on Marilyn’s suggestion.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Lynn
>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> From: Marilyn Cade <marilynscade at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme
>>> Date: April 5, 2019 at 8:14:05 AM EDT
>>> To: Lynn St.Amour <Lynn at internet-matters.org>
>>> Cc: "Igfregionals at intgovforum.org" <igfregionals at intgovforum.org>, "B at lucabelli.net" <LB at lucabelli.net>, lorena jaume <ljaume at hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> I appreciate seeing the Chair's response. It is welcomed.
>>>
>>> I especially appreciated Luca's and Lorena's earlier posts.
>>>
>>> I think the concern about the graphic is well placed and well founded.
>>>
>>> In looking at the graphic which was published by a WG chaired by the IGF Chair, I am disappointed that it found its way into being "reported out". Images have a way of conveying information that can be "misconveying".
>>> This one seems to be an example. However, it "lives" on, so it continues to misconvey.
>>>
>>> I appreciate that the Chair of MAG suggests that it is not intended.
>>>
>>> I find myself very challenged to understand why it has not been withdrawn already, if it has erroneous information. It doesn't say DRAFT, or to be approved. It is entitled:IGF-WG-MWP PROPOSAL: MULTI YEAR FRAMEWORK FOR IGF. This label makes it look like it is approved by this WG.
>>>
>>> ISSUES WITH THE GRAPHIC FROM MY PERSPECTIVE RE THE NRIS:
>>> It clearly shows the DCs and NRIs being "approved" by the MAG approval process at second meeting.
>>> As it presently stands, it seems to convey an approval process by the MAG.
>>> The "shadow" circle also identifies the need for a process for allocation of DC and NRI sessions.
>>>
>>> It seems to me, if the MAG and Chair want to show full recognition of the organic nature of the DCs and NRIs. a better choice of language is needed. ... something more like "collaborative efforts with DCs and NRIs".
>>>
>>> Rather than MAG approval process.. showing the NRIs and DCs being reviewed by the MAG.
>>>
>>> So,I have a concrete suggestion. Let's fix this. The WG and MAG Chair can simply withdraw the graphic. Formally. The link should not continue to have a document that is according to the Chair, not the formal perspective. It needs to say: withdrawn/not approved, or something of that nature so that it is not continuing to be available as what seems to be an approved recommendation from a WG chaired by the MAG chair.
>>>
>>> I do not speak for any others, but I do understand clearly how powerful a graphic can be in how it conveys information -- or misinformation.
>>>
>>> Simple solution: noted above.
>>>
>>> And, again, welcome the Chair's comments. Now time for a solution and continued acceptance of the organic and dynamic nature of the NRIs -- recognizing the presence is indeed one of the best outcomes of WSIS.
>>>
>>> Marilyn Cade
>>> From: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack at gmail.com <mailto:otieno.barrack at gmail.com>>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:07 AM
>>> To: Lynn St.Amour
>>> Cc: Igfregionals at intgovforum.org <mailto:Igfregionals at intgovforum.org>; B at lucabelli.net <mailto:B at lucabelli.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme
>>> Thanks for the clarification Lynn,
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> On 4/4/19, Lynn St.Amour <Lynn at internet-matters.org <mailto:Lynn at internet-matters.org>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Lorena, Luca,
>>>>
>>>> there is a serious misunderstanding here. The MAG is NOT “recommending the
>>>> MAG have oversight over the work of the NRIs and the DCs”, nor was the
>>>> Working Group: Multiyear Strategic Work Plan recommending this! Nor is
>>>> there a discussion on the MAG re “the MAG having oversight over the NRIs”.
>>>>
>>>> The MAG and the WG-MWP fully respect the roles and the autonomy of the NRIs
>>>> and DCs, and I believe have been working diligently to support the NRIs and
>>>> DCs - all in our respective capacities and roles.
>>>>
>>>> As an aid for the community and the MAG, the WG and the Secretariat compiled
>>>> a table several years ago (a "Component document" that included all the
>>>> component pieces of the IGF ecosystem with all their reference documents
>>>> included). That can be found here:
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Findex.php-253Fq-253Dfiledepot-5Fdownload-252F6212-252F1241-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DhSbHDSaQ5-252FiCvWJb89Wy8QH2lRI04ZXX-252Bqvig-252BJTlbw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=0oY93WtlEsipVbnjCDpJBOlWcJ1f-HTIWjv7EyR9nGg&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Findex.php-253Fq-253Dfiledepot-5Fdownload-252F6212-252F1241-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DhSbHDSaQ5-252FiCvWJb89Wy8QH2lRI04ZXX-252Bqvig-252BJTlbw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=0oY93WtlEsipVbnjCDpJBOlWcJ1f-HTIWjv7EyR9nGg&e= >
>>>> Please note: this is the reference document, not the graphic you mention
>>>> below.
>>>>
>>>> As the Chair of that WG last year, I will forward this note to the WG asking
>>>> for further comments/clarifications. Just FYI: the WG did not request to
>>>> be rechartered for 2019.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps clear up the misunderstanding. If not, please let us know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We are all working towards the same objective, and a dialogue is much more
>>>> productive for all.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 3, 2019, at 6:45 PM, lorena jaume <ljaume at hotmail.com <mailto:ljaume at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> as we discussed in our last call, a working group within the MAG is
>>>>> recommending the MAG to have oversight over the work of the NRIs and the
>>>>> DCs. This would mean that the NRI network would not be autonomous anymore
>>>>> and that our collaborative with the secretariat would not be anymore.
>>>>> Afaik this is a decision that procedurally cannot be taken by the MAG,
>>>>> since they don't have the competence. So even though the MAG wants to
>>>>> discuss the idea of having oversight over the NRIs does not mean that they
>>>>> can have oversight. I am forwarding you an email (see below) from the
>>>>> mailinglist of the Dynamic Coalitions. Luca Belli is suggesting to send a
>>>>> statement to the MAG. From our last call I take that the majority in the
>>>>> call had a similar position. Would a joint statement make sense?
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Lorena
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 03.04.19, 19:13 schrieb "LB at lucabelli.net <mailto:LB at lucabelli.net>" <LB at lucabelli.net <mailto:LB at lucabelli.net>>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Eleonora and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks for sharing these documents.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am baffled by the MAG's vision of the IGF "Ecosystem Overview"
>>>>> provided in the second document you shared
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Ffiledepot-5Fdownload-252F5075-252F1259-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DkhIMQenaSO-252FqMcxkHMJY6GwfodcsVsPQykfYE18A6dw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=53SkdUOqQ58bDg8NW0g2Y-n49vjQE1OEq_bm_0EX-Ys&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Ffiledepot-5Fdownload-252F5075-252F1259-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DkhIMQenaSO-252FqMcxkHMJY6GwfodcsVsPQykfYE18A6dw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=53SkdUOqQ58bDg8NW0g2Y-n49vjQE1OEq_bm_0EX-Ys&e= >
>>>>> (*Working Group presentation)
>>>>>
>>>>> At page 1, the graphic proposed by the MAG explicitly mentions "MAG
>>>>> approval" i.e. MAG control over DCs and NRIs work, which of course would
>>>>> be a self-attribution of non-existing MAG powers concerning what can be
>>>>> done by DCs and NRIs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Needless to remind that the MAG is a programme committee that has all
>>>>> the rights to assess that formal requirements are respected by DCs (as
>>>>> they are doing when they ask us to submit session request via specific
>>>>> forms) and NRIs but has NO right at all to approve the type or content of
>>>>> the work DCs and NRIs decide to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, of course, needless to say that this continuous underhand
>>>>> attempts from the MAG to assert control over DCs and NRIs are not really
>>>>> the best possible strategy to restore trust between us….
>>>>>
>>>>> I think both DCs and NRIs should carefully check these sort of sneaky
>>>>> attempts to control WHAT we do and STRONGLY oppose it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am writing in the hope we jointly agree to send a shared and robust
>>>>> message opposing this very peculiar MAG “overview”
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>> Luca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Luca Belli, PhD
>>>>> Professor of Internet Governance and Regulation, FGV Rio de Janeiro Law
>>>>> School
>>>>> Chercheur Associé, Centre de Droit Public Comparé,
>>>>> Université Paris 2
>>>>>
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dwww.internet-2Dgovernance.fgv.br-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3Dp8O7ZEOoKX26cxnkyFv2oHhoWsiMoLwRQ4VMvxW9IV0-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=4J-orW88aJ01M4nX6BTT5BZVA56ghlOQnEh7qh5ippA&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dwww.internet-2Dgovernance.fgv.br-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3Dp8O7ZEOoKX26cxnkyFv2oHhoWsiMoLwRQ4VMvxW9IV0-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=4J-orW88aJ01M4nX6BTT5BZVA56ghlOQnEh7qh5ippA&e= >
>>>>> @1lucabelli
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Prof. Flávio Rech Wagner
>
> Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul flavio at inf.ufrgs.br
> Instituto de Informática Fone: +55-51-3308 9494
> Porto Alegre, Brasil https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.inf.ufrgs.br_-7Eflavio&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=NIjK90IRaO-b1JTppXv5G9njb66_kUNPp5ef6vqkpMI&e=
>
> Presidente da Internet Society Brasil
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