[Wg-mwp] [Ext] Re: [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme

Nigel Hickson nigel.hickson at icann.org
Tue Jun 4 12:08:30 EDT 2019


Lynn

Good afternoon; thank you for reaching out on this.  I had lost track on where we were.  Irrespective of where the WG work has moved; I still think there is real work to be done on the multi-year Framework; will non-MAG members still be able to have an input? 

Best

Nigel  

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lynn St.Amour" <Lynn at Internet-Matters.org>
Date: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 at 11:44
To: wg-mwp <wg-mwp at intgovforum.org>
Subject: [Ext] Re: [Wg-mwp] [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme

    Hello,
    
    while this WG is not re-charted for 2019 (moved to the full MAG), I do think it is appropriate to follow up on this discussion ahead of this weeks MAG meeting. 
    
    I believe the only open question re the 'draft Programme Framework' is whether the graphic or the language (as Flávio suggested) should be updated.   Thoughts?  Has it been updated?
    
    Lynn
    
    > On Apr 5, 2019, at 4:53 PM, Flávio Rech Wagner <flavio at inf.ufrgs.br> wrote:
    > 
    > Dear Lynn and colleagues
    > 
    > Your previous response to Lorena and Luca, as well as Siva's response to Marilyn, should have been sufficient to make it clear that there is a huge misunderstanding in the interpretation of the graphic and that the WG-MWP is not proposing to give to the MAG any oversight over the work of NRIs and DCs.
    > 
    > I do not agree with Marilyn's suggestion regarding a withdrawal of the graphic. This would be an exaggerated solution to a simple issue.
    > 
    > Nevertheless, I think we can reduce negative reactions to the graphic (even if caused by a misunderstanding of its meaning) if we agree to replace "MAG approval process" with another language. Another solution would be to complement the graphic with a more detailed explanation of the "MAG approval process", clearly stating that NRIs and DCs are autonomous in their internal works.
    > 
    > Best,
    > 
    > Flávio
    > 
    > 
    > 
    >> Dear WG members,
    >> 
    >> would very much like to hear from WG members on the graphic and specifically on Marilyn’s suggestion.
    >> 
    >> Thanks in advance,
    >> 
    >> Lynn
    >> 
    >>> Begin forwarded message:
    >>> 
    >>> From: Marilyn Cade <marilynscade at hotmail.com>
    >>> Subject: Re: [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme
    >>> Date: April 5, 2019 at 8:14:05 AM EDT
    >>> To: Lynn St.Amour <Lynn at internet-matters.org>
    >>> Cc: "Igfregionals at intgovforum.org" <igfregionals at intgovforum.org>, "B at lucabelli.net" <LB at lucabelli.net>, lorena jaume <ljaume at hotmail.com>
    >>> 
    >>> I appreciate seeing the Chair's response.  It is welcomed.
    >>> 
    >>> I especially appreciated Luca's and Lorena's earlier posts.
    >>> 
    >>> I think the concern about the graphic is well placed and well founded.
    >>> 
    >>> In looking at the graphic which was published by a WG chaired by the IGF Chair, I am disappointed that it found its way into being "reported out".  Images have a way of conveying information that can be "misconveying".
    >>> This one seems to be an example. However, it "lives" on, so it continues to misconvey.
    >>> 
    >>> I appreciate that the Chair of MAG suggests that it is not intended.
    >>> 
    >>> I find myself very challenged to understand why it has not been withdrawn already, if it has erroneous information.  It doesn't say DRAFT, or to be approved. It is entitled:IGF-WG-MWP PROPOSAL: MULTI YEAR FRAMEWORK FOR IGF.  This label makes it look like it is approved by this WG.
    >>> 
    >>> ISSUES WITH THE GRAPHIC FROM MY PERSPECTIVE RE THE NRIS:
    >>> It clearly shows the DCs and NRIs being "approved" by the MAG approval process at second meeting.
    >>> As it presently stands, it seems to convey an approval process by the MAG.
    >>> The "shadow" circle also identifies the need for a process for allocation of DC and NRI sessions.
    >>> 
    >>> It seems to me,  if the MAG and Chair want to show full recognition of the organic nature of the DCs and NRIs. a better choice of language is needed. ... something more like "collaborative efforts with DCs and NRIs".
    >>> 
    >>> Rather than MAG approval process.. showing the NRIs and DCs being reviewed by the MAG.
    >>> 
    >>> So,I have a concrete suggestion.  Let's fix this.  The WG and MAG Chair can simply withdraw the graphic. Formally. The link should not continue to have a document that is according to the Chair, not the formal perspective. It needs to say: withdrawn/not approved, or something of that nature so that it is not continuing to be available as what seems to be an approved recommendation from a WG chaired by the MAG chair.
    >>> 
    >>> I do not speak for any others, but I do understand clearly how powerful a graphic can be in how it conveys information -- or misinformation.
    >>> 
    >>> Simple solution: noted above.
    >>> 
    >>> And, again, welcome the Chair's comments. Now time for a solution and continued acceptance of the organic and dynamic nature of the NRIs -- recognizing the presence is indeed one of the best outcomes of WSIS.
    >>> 
    >>> Marilyn Cade
    >>> From: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack at gmail.com <mailto:otieno.barrack at gmail.com>>
    >>> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:07 AM
    >>> To: Lynn St.Amour
    >>> Cc: Igfregionals at intgovforum.org <mailto:Igfregionals at intgovforum.org>; B at lucabelli.net <mailto:B at lucabelli.net>
    >>> Subject: Re: [NRIs List] [DC] IGF multi-year work programme
    >>>  Thanks for  the clarification Lynn,
    >>> 
    >>> Regards
    >>> 
    >>> On 4/4/19, Lynn St.Amour <Lynn at internet-matters.org <mailto:Lynn at internet-matters.org>> wrote:
    >>>> Dear Lorena, Luca,
    >>>> 
    >>>> there is a serious misunderstanding here.   The MAG is NOT “recommending the
    >>>> MAG have oversight over the work of the NRIs and the DCs”,  nor was the
    >>>> Working Group: Multiyear Strategic Work Plan recommending this!   Nor is
    >>>> there a discussion on the MAG re “the MAG having oversight over the NRIs”.
    >>>> 
    >>>> The MAG and the WG-MWP fully respect the roles and the autonomy of the NRIs
    >>>> and DCs, and I believe have been working diligently to support the NRIs and
    >>>> DCs - all in our respective capacities and roles.
    >>>> 
    >>>> As an aid for the community and the MAG, the WG and the Secretariat compiled
    >>>> a table several years ago (a "Component document" that included all the
    >>>> component pieces of the IGF ecosystem with all their reference documents
    >>>> included).  That can be found here:
    >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Findex.php-253Fq-253Dfiledepot-5Fdownload-252F6212-252F1241-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DhSbHDSaQ5-252FiCvWJb89Wy8QH2lRI04ZXX-252Bqvig-252BJTlbw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=0oY93WtlEsipVbnjCDpJBOlWcJ1f-HTIWjv7EyR9nGg&e=  <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Findex.php-253Fq-253Dfiledepot-5Fdownload-252F6212-252F1241-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DhSbHDSaQ5-252FiCvWJb89Wy8QH2lRI04ZXX-252Bqvig-252BJTlbw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=0oY93WtlEsipVbnjCDpJBOlWcJ1f-HTIWjv7EyR9nGg&e= >
    >>>>   Please note: this is the reference document, not the graphic you mention
    >>>> below.
    >>>> 
    >>>> As the Chair of that WG last year, I will forward this note to the WG asking
    >>>> for further comments/clarifications.   Just FYI: the WG did not request to
    >>>> be rechartered for 2019.
    >>>> 
    >>>> Hope this helps clear up the misunderstanding.  If not, please let us know.
    >>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> We are all working towards the same objective, and a dialogue is much more
    >>>> productive for all.
    >>>> 
    >>>> Best regards,
    >>>> 
    >>>> Lynn
    >>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>>> On Apr 3, 2019, at 6:45 PM, lorena jaume <ljaume at hotmail.com <mailto:ljaume at hotmail.com>> wrote:
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> Dear all,
    >>>>> as we discussed in our last call, a working group within the MAG is
    >>>>> recommending the MAG to have oversight over the work of the NRIs and the
    >>>>> DCs. This would mean that the NRI network would not be autonomous anymore
    >>>>> and that our collaborative with the secretariat would not be anymore.
    >>>>> Afaik this is a decision that procedurally cannot be taken by the MAG,
    >>>>> since they don't have the competence. So even though the MAG wants to
    >>>>> discuss the idea of having oversight over the NRIs does not mean that they
    >>>>> can have oversight. I am forwarding you an email (see below) from the
    >>>>> mailinglist of the Dynamic Coalitions. Luca Belli is suggesting to send a
    >>>>> statement to the MAG. From our last call I take that the majority in the
    >>>>> call had a similar position. Would a joint statement make sense?
    >>>>> Regards,
    >>>>> Lorena
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> Am 03.04.19, 19:13 schrieb "LB at lucabelli.net <mailto:LB at lucabelli.net>" <LB at lucabelli.net <mailto:LB at lucabelli.net>>:
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>    Dear Eleonora and all,
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     Many thanks for sharing these documents.
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     I am baffled by the MAG's vision of the IGF "Ecosystem Overview"
    >>>>> provided in the second document you shared
    >>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Ffiledepot-5Fdownload-252F5075-252F1259-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DkhIMQenaSO-252FqMcxkHMJY6GwfodcsVsPQykfYE18A6dw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=53SkdUOqQ58bDg8NW0g2Y-n49vjQE1OEq_bm_0EX-Ys&e=  <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.intgovforum.org-252Fmultilingual-252Ffiledepot-5Fdownload-252F5075-252F1259-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3DkhIMQenaSO-252FqMcxkHMJY6GwfodcsVsPQykfYE18A6dw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=53SkdUOqQ58bDg8NW0g2Y-n49vjQE1OEq_bm_0EX-Ys&e= >
    >>>>> (*Working Group presentation)
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     At page 1, the graphic proposed by the MAG explicitly mentions "MAG
    >>>>> approval" i.e. MAG control over DCs and NRIs work, which of course would
    >>>>> be a self-attribution of non-existing MAG powers concerning what can be
    >>>>> done by DCs and NRIs.
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     Needless to remind that the MAG is a programme committee that has all
    >>>>> the rights to assess that formal requirements are respected by DCs (as
    >>>>> they are doing when they ask us to submit session request via specific
    >>>>> forms) and NRIs but has NO right at all to approve the type or content of
    >>>>> the work DCs and NRIs decide to do.
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     And, of course, needless to say that this continuous underhand
    >>>>> attempts from the MAG to assert control over DCs and NRIs are not really
    >>>>> the best possible strategy to restore trust between us….
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     I think both DCs and NRIs should carefully check these sort of sneaky
    >>>>> attempts to control WHAT we do and STRONGLY oppose it.
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     I am writing in the hope we jointly agree to send a shared and robust
    >>>>> message opposing this very peculiar MAG “overview”
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>     Best
    >>>>>     Luca
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>    Luca Belli, PhD
    >>>>>    Professor of Internet Governance and Regulation, FGV Rio de Janeiro Law
    >>>>> School
    >>>>>    Chercheur Associé, Centre de Droit Public Comparé,
    >>>>> Université Paris 2
    >>>>> 
    >>>>>    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dwww.internet-2Dgovernance.fgv.br-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3Dp8O7ZEOoKX26cxnkyFv2oHhoWsiMoLwRQ4VMvxW9IV0-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=4J-orW88aJ01M4nX6BTT5BZVA56ghlOQnEh7qh5ippA&e=  <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dwww.internet-2Dgovernance.fgv.br-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257C-257C0a869ab461884879448e08d6b984b1da-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C636900376904293881-26amp-3Bsdata-3Dp8O7ZEOoKX26cxnkyFv2oHhoWsiMoLwRQ4VMvxW9IV0-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=4J-orW88aJ01M4nX6BTT5BZVA56ghlOQnEh7qh5ippA&e= >
    >>>>>    @1lucabelli
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    > 
    > -- 
    > Prof. Flávio Rech Wagner		
    > 
    > Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul      flavio at inf.ufrgs.br
    > Instituto de Informática                       Fone: +55-51-3308 9494
    > Porto Alegre, Brasil                           https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.inf.ufrgs.br_-7Eflavio&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=Rrr3EqCQYf4jdd137DSKOiFt_0H5bWK71BDdEmRVAGY&s=NIjK90IRaO-b1JTppXv5G9njb66_kUNPp5ef6vqkpMI&e= 
    > 
    > Presidente da Internet Society Brasil
    > flavio at inf.ufrgs.br, info at isoc.org.br          Fone: +55-51-3308 9494
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