The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
***
>> MODERATOR: Greetings, everyone, and welcome to this session. I'm the Chief of Research and Data Section at U.N. Women.
In my section, we also have the work on digital technology and innovation so it's really a pleasure to be here this evening.
So just quickly, next year, we will celebrate WSIS+20. It is the 30th anniversary of the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action.
So, the issues related to technology and the digital world will be front and centre of that discussion.
At U.N. Women, we host the Action Coalition on Technology and Innovation, which is part of the digital equality forum, and you will hear from that shortly from a colleague of mine who really leads that exercise.
But before giving her the floor, I just wanted to welcome you all. This is a really exciting panel and an exciting discussion, and I hope that we will all be able to gain some insight from it.
Without further ado, I'll give the floor to my colleague Helene who will do the presentation for us.
>> HELEN MOLINIER: Thank you. I hope you can hear me okay. It's great that technology allows me to be with you today, even though I cannot be there in person.
So, I'll start just with a few words to reflect back on the journey and to set the scene before the panel.
First to say that over the last two years, we've ignited a multisector conversation on how to leverage the GDC to drive a more equitable digital transformation. We did that first by publishing a position paper on how to take forward the recommendation of CSW67 and integrate them into the GDC negotiation.
A lot of these efforts -- (?) in the negotiation.
They were also led by civil society organizations, which developed the feminist principle for including gender in the GDC and this principle emphasized the need for rights-based gender responsive digital framework.
In the current multilateral context, reaching consensus on the GDC has been an achievement. And for us I think the first lesson is that it has been the confirmation that collective multisector efforts can clearly contribute to positioning gender perspectives into negotiations.
As a result of this work and these efforts, what we have now is a GDC that does acknowledge gender-based disparities, and I think this is a welcome recognition, finally that digital technologies are far from being neutral.
Obviously, another step in the right direction has been that the GDC recognized gender equality and the employment all of women and girls as one of the GDC principles.
The GDC reaffirms many of the principles, including the mainstreaming of gender perspectives in digital strategies, the need to address barriers to meaningful, safe and equitable digital access for women and girls. The fact that we need to promote women leadership and participation in technology and digital decisions.
And obviously, that we need to urgently address gender-based violence, which occurs through or is amplified by the use of technology.
There are a few other opportunities in the GDC, especially the fact that it acknowledges the need to target capacity building and entrepreneurship for women and the fact that we need to support inclusive STEM education, and all of these are really truly valuable commitments.
But we all know that having aspirational language won't be enough.
And so, we have a collective responsibility to ensure that the GDC implementation is set on clear targets and contribution mechanisms so that commitments to gender equity are not purely symbolic. We need to put in place enforceable standards grounded in international human rights.
A few of the gaps may be that we have in the GDC. We find them, for example, on emerging topics, such as AI and the references to gender equality have not been included in the final draft.
It creates gaps that have led to the current state of digital inequity that we have. We cannot have digital technologies or digital infrastructure deployed without assessing their broader societal risk and opportunities.
And so having these gaps it means that women are at risk of being doubly excluded, being excluded first from the economic opportunity that AI or GPI can offer, but also excluded for the governance decision in shaping the deployment.
We feel that in the GDC -- in transfer of technology, in GPI, but there is no strong call to invest in people. And so, the problem at stake today, it's not just about being online; it's about not being erased from digital innovation altogether.
And so, we have currently, a gender digital divide bridge by structural inequalities, and they are deep rooted, and they prevent women from accessing the technical and financial resources that would help them benefit from the digital revolution.
And so, this is something we feel must be acknowledged, must be reversed and next year, we have two important milestones. We have the review of WSIS, 20 years since its inception and the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action, 30 years.
And they both offer unique opportunities not only to review these mechanisms, but to advance GDC implementation.
And so the objective of today's session is that we collectively shape a cohesive action agenda and chart the path forward and to ensure that gender equality, that women's digital rights are not merely mentioned, but that they are prioritized in the implementation of all these instruments, WSIS, Beijing and GDC and they all come together.
This is the objective of today's discussion, and I really look forward to this exciting panel and over to you, colleagues.
>> MODERATOR: Great. Thank you. Really again, I do recall this work and trying to shape a paper to guide discussions on the GDC. Trying to integrate the agenda perspective, and I think this is really one of the I would say key achievements of the action coalition so congratulations to you and to colleagues for this excellent work. Now I'll just turn to the panel. We have a great panel of speakers, so I have Isabel Criado, Mr. Roy Eriksson. Mr. Sibille. And Ms. Alaa Abdulaal at the digital corporation organization. And we have two speakers who are online, Ms. Nandini Chami, deputy director at IT for change. And Ms. Tala Debs, WSIS coordinator at ITU.
So, I'll start with you, Isabel. Just a reminder that we have about four minutes each in terms of answers so that we can stick to the time.
So, Isabel, in your view, what would be the building blocks of a gender responsive AI, recognizing both its transformative power, but also the risks that are inherent in it? How can we leverage the GDC to bridge the gender gap in AI and governance?
>> Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to join this conversation. I'm Isabel from the U.N. secretary general's tech envoy.
Our office recently accompanied a high-level advisory body on AI to emerge recommendations from the field, from countries, from academic sciences on how to govern AI for humanity.
And we held a very interesting session on the question of women and gender and the governance of AI.
The results of the high-level body's process are available online. It's a wonderful report and a couple of them landed in the global digital compact which was recently approved at the end of the summit of the future.
The high-level body offered up its recommendations to the and through interaction and negotiations, the member states accepted two and maybe one more of those recommendations, which means that alongside the GDC's enunciation of a principle for gender equality and empowerment, we also link a way forward on AI governance.
So, to take your second question first, it's rather abstract, to be honest. How do we leverage the GDC? It's a little bit abstract, but essentially, what we've put into the GDC are these two issues side by side.
So we want to govern A46 humanity, but we need to do so in a way that is gender empowering and that's important, because words matter and this is an agenda that we can take forward to bring stakeholders together, to cooperate on concrete paths, which I think is actually much more interesting, to address the question of how do we make sure that AI works for women?
Well, the truth is that right now, we've got a lot of problems in front of us with AI.
So, the number one is that its data driven and the data is mostly in seven languages, mostly in English, and it doesn't represent actually data necessarily generated by women around the world.
Certainly not women of colour, certainly not women in rural areas who may not have access to connectivity, and underneath that, it's maybe not girls as well that are generating that data. So, the AI models that are being developed at the moment, unfortunately, are probably not going to be gender responsive. But not all is lost, because I think that these agendas have done a tremendous job of sounding the alarm from the get-go.
So, what didn't happen with the internet, which was the same from the get-go, how does the internet work for women, that's happening now.
From the get-go, the U.N. will take its first steps in the implementation of the GDC keeping the gender empowerment principle and actions in mind.
And there's a second principle that I think can help us from the GDC which is to work in partnership. And that's -- the end of day 1 here at the IGF, it's starting to sound trite to say that, but I have an example.
So, we know that current LLMs are not necessarily gender empowering, but if we work in partnership and because of the high visibility that's been created on this risk, we might be able to steward these LLMs and generative AI in a way that is more gender reaffirming. I heard during our consultations for the high-level advisory body's report, I heard an academic say something that I should give her copyright for, but she said it takes a village to raise a gender affirming AI.
So, we need to work with the companies, academics, scientists need to look closely at their data and their models, tweak the data. Data can be tweaked. We need to roll it out into the world and have civil society company its applications in the world and a feedback loop from civil society to companies to tweak it again. And probably I'm talking too much. Let me check the time. I've gone through four minutes. Okay. Sorry.
I'm talking too much. It takes a village, meaning academics and scientists, let's look at the data together, make it more friendly towards women. Let's look at the applications. What is the user loop? So some applications, we may not be able to tell ahead of time how those applications will affect women and girls. So, working with civil society and governments to have a feedback loop towards the companies and a human in the loop that can help to train up women for the use of these AI or the reverse, tweak them so that they are more gender friendly.
So, these are just some concrete -- one abstract idea about the policy world and one concrete idea of partnership.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. Right now, I turn to you. In your view, is the GDC adequately addressing the risks of gender disinformation, discrimination and gender-based violence? What do you think are the key measures to that are required to ensure women and girls can benefit from a safe and empowering digital environment?
>> Thank you. My name is Roy Eriksson and I'm the global gateway ambassador for Finland, an EU initiative to finance big infrastructure projects in the global south.
In my answers actually in order to save some time, I will concentrate mainly on the issue, but I will only refer to the first question that the U.N. special rapporteur tackled the topic. One of her recommendations is that states should integrate fully gendered perspectives into their policies and programs to address disinformation and misinformation in digital literacy programs.
That is something we do in Finland already from primary school, we teach media literacy to our kids so that they can have better tools to understand what real information is and what is maybe disinformation of some sort.
When preparing and negotiating the global digital compact, gender equality was one of Finland's top priorities.
We are pleased that it is one of the principles highlighted in the compact, emphasizing the cross-cutting nature.
There are also concrete commitments related to gender-based violence in the compact.
From the point of view of this discussion, the most important one is the commitment to develop effective methodologies to measure, monitor and counter all forms of violence and abuse in individual space.
The problem is very real.
According to the economist intelligence union, 38% of women have personal experience of digital violence, and 85% of women using the internet have witnessed digital violence against other women.
In Finland, the latest research shows, for example, that digital violence is the most common form of violence in young people's intimate relationships.
This issue has wider repercussions as it is also a real threat to democracy, because it threatens to limit the participation of women and girls in society.
But what can the GDC do and what should we focus on, in implementing this commitment? First, we need more data and evidence to base our actions on. In this, it is critical that the private sector is able to track this phenomenon and share data with researchers and authorities. More transparency is needed on the part of platforms where these activities take place.
Second, we need effective grievance mechanisms where users can report concerns and raise issues followed by action on the part of platform operators and service providers.
Third, human rights perspectives need to be mainstreamed in the design of new digital technologies including digital services so as to be able to understand their potential human rights impact and anticipate the need to protect women and girls from risks.
And finally, updating our legislative means and ensuring our law enforcement and judiciary systems are capable of addressing this. Concrete measures need to be taken to ensure that national legislation, policies, strategies and action plans on the preventions and elimination of gender-based violence includes online gender-based violence.
Law enforcement and the judiciary system need to be able to recognize, prevent, investigate and address this problem.
Improving services for survivors is also of critical importance.
Finland has taken these issues seriously.
The GDC reinforces the need for multi-stakeholder cooperation in implementing the U.N. digital agenda. The compact is not only important for states, but also for non-state actors, the private sector, civil society and academia.
The GDC anchors the agenda for this group cooperation firmly under the U.N. charter and rests in respect for international law and human rights.
This responsibility concerns both the states and private sectors, and I hope we can together address this in implementing the compact.
And lastly, I would like to mention Finland's generation equality growth group as an example of civil society's active engagement. It consists of 27 young people who focus on advancing gender equality through advocacy. They have published two manifestoes called the right to be online. The first one is for the technology sector, and the second one which was published only three weeks ago is for the policy makers on how to target gender based online violence.
As we I will stop here.
>> MODERATOR: Sorry about that. One of my functions at U.N. women is analytical research and data. We do work a lot on the measurement side particularly here on the measurement of the technology facilitated gender-based violence.
And it's exciting that one of the things that we are now doing is developing consistent framework for measuring and monitoring that.
And I think that's really going to advance us in terms of documenting the problem and measuring it, and also addressing it.
So, thank you very much.
So let me turn to you. The GDC includes references to digital skills and leadership in technology.
How can we address gender-based disparities in digital access and promote women's representation in tech industries, in STEM education, but also in decision making groups?
>> Thank you so much and it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. I work for the European Union delegation to the U.N. in Geneva. We are very happy to see that the GDC is so strongly enshrined in international human rights laws including with regards to the gender perspective. As was already mentioned, the GDC upholds gender equality and the empowerment of all women and girls and it also speaks about the different targets and the different obstacles that we need to overcome so we will -- affordability, digital skilling and inclusion of women in the tech positions.
But as was already mentioned, the GDC is just a framework, and it can only be impactful if you are able to implement it together and forcefully and this is going to be work of all the multistakeholder community and the journey will be long. As we already heard during the high-level segments this morning, the representation of women in the tech workforce is very low still. So, for instance, when I read the statistics from the women in tech in Europe, there is only -- women comprise only about 19% of the tech workforce. The number is even lower in the leadership positions, and we also saw that during COVID, for instance, women in tech sectors face likelihood of being furloughed or laid off twice as high as that of their male peers.
We also see in those statistics that only 2.3% of women-led startups can get venture capital funding. And if you look at the developing countries, the obstacles and challenges are made even greater by the overall global digital divide and the lack of access to meaningful connectivity.
So, what do we need to do? There is yet another obstacle that was also mentioned. Once women actually get online, they sometimes face gender-based violence, so the environment online is not safe enough for them.
So, I would just like to highlight maybe three points that we need to concentrate on. First is to increase investments overall in digital infrastructure including broadband connectivity, but also promotion of digital skills and literacy program that will particularly target the marginalized community.
We also need to increase women's representation in the tech industry and the STEM education and decision-making roles and, of course, we need to try to make the online space safer for women with zero tolerance to gender based violence online.
We as the EU, we are trying to do that as team Europe through our global gateway project. I will mention just a couple of things. In Mozambique we have a great initiative, and it's about creating space for digital skills and coding courses for high school students to target particularly women and girls and we also coordinate with regard to the overall connectivity and bridging the digital divide. We cooperate on a project involving meaningful connectivity indicators being implemented in several countries of the world.
And then when it comes to the online digital space, you might have seen the EU has produced a number of digital legislation pieces which are based on the human rights-based approach to technology and particularly also trying to make the online space safe for women.
So, for instance, digital services act, which is also targeting the content of the social media platforms, or the AI act, which is trying to regulate the high-risk situations where AI can be misused or have an enough impact on human rights including women's rights.
And I will be happy to answer more questions. Thank you so much.
>> MODERATOR: Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. So let me turn to you. The work that you do at the DCO is really important. So there have been many conversations in the lead-up to the GDC on the need to strengthen capacity and address knowledge. A lot of it you already do.
We also talked about resource gaps a lot, especially for low-income countries. How can we make sure we prioritize generational knowledge, build capacity and generate resources to address the gender divide? Can you give us some clues?
>> Thank you so much. I would like to build on what you have said. The GDC are principles we agree on. Our core mandate is to ensure that every person, every business, every nation has a fair opportunity to participate and have an equal access to all the opportunities that are offered by the digital economy.
And this aligns well with what we are trying to achieve by the GDC and the principles of equitable access for everyone.
And you have even mentioned how important those principles need to be translated into action.
And this is also a part of what we have tried to do is because we have a lot of conversations on the GCC, we have been involved. Recently, we have launched what we call the digital economy navigator which will help in assessing, first of all, if we want to really move forward and have progress towards an equitable opportunity. We need to measure where we are. We really need to understand where the gap is. What is exactly missing in different countries?
And this is what we are trying to do with the digital economy navigator which is again based on the importance of civil society -- a dimension of society having a fair opportunity and having that layer from government with the right internet access, with the right infrastructure, with the right qualities that will enable that -- (Microphone cutting out) What are the gaps for those countries? How they can progress. And we have included some of the countries within our assessment. And from what we are seeing, we really -- the data from women -- (Audio difficulties) For them to get the right skills to really be part of this acceleration.
How AI is very important -- how to include the different -- and this is even what we are trying to do with all the initiatives to build upon those principles that are set -- GDC to make sure that everyone have the right skills, have the right investment in technology from women, different startups, SMEs, all of them, to make sure that -- it has to be -- stakeholder approach. It's not upon just one country or one organization. It needs to be a cooperation -- the private sector, between the governments, between us as international organizations to really work together because no one entity or one nation can solve this issue alone. It needs a united effort -- which the GDC is offering already, and I think this is the only approach and the only way that this could happen.
>> MODERATOR: Great. Thank you very much, and I think the theme of multistakeholders is really resonating I think across the past couple of days. So now I'll now turn to you. And here, my question is regarding something that is not in the GDC. Particularly DPI, digital public infrastructure. And just this morning during the plenary we heard about DPI but also AI DPI and we see a gender perspective that is missing.
What principles of gender design can be applied here?
>> Thank you for the question. I hope that you can hear me online and offline, as well.
Yeah. So just to get to that, so let's first understand what we're all talking about when we talk about digital public infrastructure and here I think the U.N. working group's definition of DPI referring to an umbrella term that refers to a gamut of digital solutions for enabling the availability of public services is useful to think about.
And when we are looking at gender by design, feminists have long recognized that infrastructures are not value neutral artifacts, but rather they are political ecosystems and we can recall the feminist argument for the right to reproductive services to be accessed through gender responsive design of public health clinic infrastructure. As far ago as 30 years ago and so the DP6 no exception to the gender by design argument.
With this background now when we look at the question of the first principles of actioning gender responsive DPI, for some insights I want to share some other research at IT for change about principles. Number one, data governance choices in DPI solutions embody and exercise power and therefore, design choices must be evaluated through the gender justice lens in all signs and parts of the data life cycle.
With respect to data collection and processing, they must use the principle of data minimization and further when they encode gender realities in data categories, we need to pay attention to intersectional power and how it operates and what kind of data targeting are we deploying?
Secondly, we need to give equal attention to the question of downstream data use. Data governance frameworks of DPIs need to be grounded in feminist data justice visions by protecting the right all of data subjects to the right to the represented in data based decision making and most importantly, the right to collectively determine how the social commons of data are preserved and promoted for public value and benefit.
The commons of public welfare data cannot become a free for all resources that the market exploits without any benefit sharing with relevant data communities.
Secondly, when adopting DPI solutions, particularly in the global south where gender digital divides in access and use continue to persist, it cannot lead to a digital by default solution, which results in the exclusion of women and access to their rightful entitlements.
This also means that rather than looking at mobile as last mine imaginaries, the older and abiding issue of public access points being citizen kiosks for digital public service delivery we need to have them as integral to DPI imaginaries.
My final point is about reimagining DPI as democratic accountable infrastructures because, after all, gender inclusion is a project of democracy as a southern feminist movement shows us.
What this means is that in the design and development of DPIs, we need to leave no one behind.
Institution safeguards for public consultations to guide technical design choices in DPI design and roll-out should be happening not just with affected communities, but also frontline workers. The majority of whom are women, whose labour will be implicated in the transition to digital public service delivery.
Further, and most importantly, we need legal guarantees to protect women's human rights bottom lines in DPI implementation, especially in public-private partnership arrangements that are becoming increasingly common in the turn to AI enabled public service delivery where AI system operators and AI system providers of the government and private partners will be in new relationships.
A legally guaranteed right to explanation in DPI deployment is particularly critical in this context for democratic accountability.
Last, but not least institutional support for addressing intersectional exclusions and discrimination, the right to grievance redress in DPS systems in multiservice delivery becomes crucial.
Thank you so much.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much and again, excellent principles, and I think we have to make sure -- implementation so I think this is really again, a role for everyone and that's where the issue of multi-stakeholders come in.
And my final question is the GDC recommends mainstream development from the perspective of the connectivity strategy. How have the process been addressing gender mainstreaming and what are the plans for WSIS+20 to posture a more inclusive digital ecosystem?
We can't hear you.
>> I'm very pleased to take part in this important panel discussion. Since its inception in 2003, the world summit on the information society has set out a vision for harnessing information and communication technologies to promote gender equality.
The declaration of principles affirms that development of ICTs provides enormous opportunities for women who should be an integral part and key actors of the information society.
The inclusion of women and girls is paramount to bridging the digital gender divide.
It aligns with the vision to build a people-cantered, inclusive and development-oriented information and knowledge societies where everyone can create, access, utilize and share information.
However, the digital gender divide remains one of the greatest barriers to the meaningful participation of women in society. According to the latest facts and figure in 2024, 70% of women are using the internet compared to 65% of -- there are 189 million more men than women using the internet in 2024.
The estimated 2.6 billion people who remain unconnected are primarily women and girls.
For the past 20 years, the WSIS process has been instrumental in bridging these issues and bringing them to the forefront.
Gender mainstreaming is a cross-cutting issue across all 11 WSIS action lines which offer a robust framework to promote meaningful, affordable access to digital literacy and empowerment for women among other objectives.
At the annual WSIS forum, WSIS persistently champions a special track on ICTs and gender mainstreaming and from this special track, we have launched initiatives, such as the WSIS repository of women and technology, which is a unique platform, which aims to identify and connect women leaders and practitioners across the digital realm for development and to create spaces for networking, mentorship sessions and documentations of best practices.
I invite you all to join this repository.
And of course -- to advocate and promote the inclusion of gender considerations in the digital discourse.
Another important aspect to highlight is the WSIS prizes, serving as a valuable resource with more than 13,000 projects chairing gender sensitive projects that promote gender inclusion from across the world and facilitating their application among multi-stakeholders.
For instance, projects like our girls our future by Ghana using accomplished African women have been recognized in 2021 for addressing the barriers women face in assessing digital technologies, specifically targeting women in underrepresented communities and regions.
As we look toward WSIS 20, gender mainstreaming remains a priority in fostering a more inclusive gender ecosystem.
The upcoming review in 2025 provides an opportunity to evaluate progress, identify gaps and develop strategies that align with the recently adopted global digital compact where gender perspectives are central to implementation and, of course, the 2030 agenda for sustainable development.
Some of the work include continuing to encouraging development of gender responsive technology and innovation that cater to the needs of women and girls through partnerships and multi-stakeholder collaboration.
Keep supporting the data collection and data disaggregated data collection to better inform policies and initiatives using the partnership on measuring ICTs for development.
Under the WSIS's action line, capacity building keeps supporting and scaling skills development programs specifically designed for women and girls in more regions to accelerate progress.
Great examples are the ICUs equals global partnership focusing on access, skills, leadership and research. The AI skill accelerate for girls, which aims to equip young women with a capacity to become AI creators and not just consumers.
Promoting gender responsive policies, advocating for policies that address affordability, online safety and equitable access to digital resources for women and marginalized groups.
Collaborating with U.N. women and other stakeholders on a WSIS paging plus 30 action plans for bridging digital gender divide.
Through the open consultation process that is currently being active across the preparations, the WSIS+20 high-level in 2025, some stakeholders are calling for a new action line on gender. Joining the WSIS high-level event 2025 and contributing to the ICTs and main tries to remembering special track is also an aspect to work towards the WSIS+20 review in 2025.
To conclude, over the years, WSIS has acknowledged the critical importance of fostering digital gender equality and this recognition stems from the understanding that digital inclusion is a cornerstone for achieving broader social and economic equality.
The global digital compact, Beijing posterity and the WSIS+20 offers a critical opportunity to reimagine the digital future by doubling down on gender mainstreaming. We can ensure that this digital revolution leaves no one behind.
Thank you very much.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you. So again, a very rich discussion, and I think some of the comments being highlighted here and so Helene let me turn to you to see if there are a couple of questions? We have about five minutes, but just in case there are any questions or comments that are coming through chat.
>> Thank you. I know that we're out of time, but I think we have one speaker. Are you there?
>> I'm here.
>> Thank you. So hello, colleagues. Maybe friends on this panel. Just to go -- I'm from women at the table, an A plus alliance for inclusive algorithms. I just want to say as we look to the lessons on gender equality from the GDC, we have a couple of operational ideas. One is to have a stand-alone action line for gender in WSIS to add an action line.
We know that having a standalone paragraph in the GDC which we worked very hard to incorporate is a powerful opportunity.
We would obviously also like stronger mainstreaming throughout WSIS which I know they're working very hard at, but for everybody to support that and advocate.
We also think a digital track at Beijing plus 30 and within CSW in general would be a really fabulous addition to bring together the worlds of digital and gender.
And to that end also the use of the very recent general recommendation 40 for parity for women in all forms of decision making including in the technology world, which again, we worked very hard for having them mention AI and technology. It would be fabulous if that coordination between U.N. women, between WSIS, between the office for technology, would be integrated and worked hard on so that we have the floor, the terrible floor of technology facilitated gender based violence, but we also start to create a much higher sealing for the possibilities that the new technology can bring.
And finally, to help make those possibilities a reality, we would like everyone to consider gender responsive budgeting and in particular, gender responsive public procurement, set aside for both women-owned businesses and women-run businesses and also for businesses that address the inequities that women face and work to create a better enabling environment that way. So, it's not only about more women, more women studying stem, but also, more operations that actually that go towards creating different structural barriers.
>> MODERATOR: I need you to wrap up.
>> Sex, age and geography.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. And sorry I have to rush you there. But really again, I wouldn't prolong this much. I know you have to take this, too, but really thank you to all of you for joining us and for this conversation and also for those who have joined us online. We have 20 participants who are still there, listening to this conversation and it's not a one and done. We will continue this conversation, including through Beijing next year so thank you very much.