IGF 2022 Day 3 Open Forum #66 South-South Collaboration in Web3 Governance

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.



>> Hi, everyone.

>> Hello.  Jeffrey from Coco.  I'm here.

>> Kate Suton from UNDP.

>> Perfect, everyone is on time.  We'll give it a minute and then we'll start.

>> Thank you. 

>> Cool.  Awesome.  Thanks, everyone, for coming.  My name is Matt.  I'm with the Global Change where I lead the governance and rights.  And I'm really happy to be hosting this session with the worldwide foundation and VANN is our moderator.  He'll be answering your questions online.  We have an awesome panel lined up to chat about web 3 governance and the opportunities and challenges that this emerging technology, um, has for emerging economies.  So to start, I'd love to go around and have the panelists introduce themselves.  I'll start with Jeffrey to see ‑‑ he has some slides which is really great because I haven't prepared any slides.  So this will be really great.  I will pass it over to you first and we can go to other panelists.

>> Jeffrey:  Hello.  You can hear me, everyone?

>> Yes.  That's a bit better.  Introduce yourself and we'd love to see your slides.



>> I don't know if will take too much time.

>> That's good.

>> Thanks.  I'm Every.  I am Singaporean but now in Vietnam.  My background is I currently co‑found and set up POKO.  We came up from the reason why batch.  We have building payments systems that are accessible to merchants anywhere in the world especially in Emerging markets so that we can serve customers in a cross manner.  We do that on a combination of web 2 and web 3 payments.  Prior to this, I was a fellow at AT foundation.  I was a core author with several reports and was on several task forces and economic forum on digital currency and was also founding key member and chief strategy officer for a $2 billion protocol.  So that's my background.  I spent most of my life working on developing countries.

>> Thanks, Kate and then Donna.

>> Kate:  Hi, everyone.  My name is Kate Suton and the work for the united development program.  I run the innovation in digital teams for Asia‑Pacific.  So all of the country offices that we have, which is 25 from Samoa to Iran.  And I think the reason why I'm here is obviously we work with governments across this region on digital, but I have recently authored a report and a program specifically on web 3 and Impact and how we can achieve SDGs.  I will pop the link to that in the chat here for you to have a look at.  Thank you so much for having me along.

>> Thanks so much.  Hey, Donna?

>> Donna:  Hi, everyone.  I am from Kazakhstan Central Asia.  I represent project office called Blockchain Center.  It is the project management office by central banks subsidiary and the largest tech no part in the central Asia.  So what we do here is we ‑‑ we work on educational initiatives in blow up chain.  We also run business programs in web 3 due to community building and do research and development in blockchain related field.  I am a developer myself and I have over 8 years of experience of developments and I got involved into the blockchain was in my experience as a software developer and then I joined the team of the subsidiary central bank, local central bank that's the CBDC Research Digital team, local CBDC.  Thank you.

>> Thanks.  And in the room, we have (?).

>> Thanks.  My name is Mohil.  A lot of this work has been impacting policy construct and also about how ‑‑ what are the factors that are driving and adoption in emerging economies.  I'm also a part of the fellowship for 2022 and as part of my work, I'm looking at how CBD can usher in work and streamline payments for workers.

>> Thanks, everyone.  I would love to pass it back to Geoffrey to set the scene.

>> Geoffrey:  Thanks so much.  So many policymakers thank us on this topic.  I'm a bit of an unusual background being an entrepreneur.  I will quickly share what we do and hopefully set some contacts and just excited to have a discussion and I think for me, I think the main take away is how we use web 3 payments to support entrepreneurs.  So basically POKO, we experimented with various products on Web Tree.  We had how to enable payments that is easy to use for cross‑border transactions and especially in emerging markets.  We are born of giving merchants the able to access cross‑border digital commerce opportunities and we saw a lot of this happening especially in the web tree space during the last two or three years especially in emerging markets.  So what do we do?  We basically enable merchants to charge customers in 120 plus markets.  These are in fiat currencies.  This routed to the merchants as stable coins.  So merchants anywhere in the world receive money into the own non‑custodial wallet and we work with bangs and other providers to create on and off crypto rims.  The access point of this system.  So if I'm sitting in Indonesia and my customer is in Vietnam, my Vietnamese customer can pay Vietnamese and I am able to have stable coins in Indonesia and we'll be able to convert those back into Indonesia so I can pay my staff and team.  This payment is much more demographic for developing countries and enable them to remove cross bottom into (?).  The content is historically if you say you're in a place like Vietnam, and you are embarking on e‑Commerce business, you want to use international payment processor like Stripe.  If you are from a country in Vietnam, you cannot set up your Stripe account.  You need to establish a country in Singapore or the U.S.  You need to apply for a bank account in this country and those are not easy things for most merchants to do.  So the barriers for opportunity is significant.  And because you have to use this centralized platform, you end up having to ‑‑ you have ‑‑ there's a lot of control to exercise this platform over what you can or cannot do.  For example, if you are not able to sign a bank account in Singapore, then you cannot access this payment.  They charge up to a 35% take rate.  If you want to publish threw the Apple store, they charge 30% for anything that's consumed in your app.  If you are selling it true Apple store.  So these are issues that creators, entrepreneurs are doing cross bottom business phase.  And it's expensive.  It's very high cost business with them and more often than not, they're not able to do it.  You can accept payments from anywhere.  We rout this too much for stable coins and merchants control their wallets.  So they're not subject to certain policies or friction that key intermediaries white impose on the floor front.  We see that for many businesses that have a very long tear of customers, this is beneficial to them because they don't have the resource to set up country by country, payment infrastructure.  So it's a much more globally accessible solution.  And I think we see this in the numbers.  I think in terms of adoption, we see very significant participation of emerging markets in the web tree transactions.  So what I have here on the right is the table there general analysis ‑‑ what we see and what is enabled for creators is this payment allows us the fastest speed of the market.  They allow entrepreneurs to go cross‑border easily and allow them to go global very, very quickly.  Examples I have here is infinity was a significant plate on game that grew very big.  I think he had a few billion dollar coin cap in a matter of two years, which is unusual for a small game studio from emerging market.  The decentral land is from Argentina.  Similarly amazing as a metaverse.  Most people don't know they're from Argentina.  They go to a $1 billion coin cap.  And kind of by giving access true this web tree economy.  So I think this is things that make us pretty brutish about the space and it can bring us from the emerging countries.  Thanks.

>> MATT:  I would love to hear from panelists about use cases and web 3 technologies especially beyond, um, like crypto currency and growing digital economy can have four global south.  I will start with Kate and if anyone else has anything to add, please do.

>> Kate:  Thanks very much.  So the premise of the report wasn't just about crypto currency.  It was looking at the whole thing looking at technologies that sit under the grouping of web 3.  So this kind of idea of the fact that web 2 hasn't served us well.  It is centralizing everything and all of the challenges that Geoffrey has so well articulated is expensive to live.  It's hot.  Some really hard stuff that we haven't cracked.  Every day an organizations like the UNDP, we're trying to change financial systems.  We're trying to change economic systems and government systems and create new innovations.  For me, web 3 is an enabler of all that.  It is providing ‑‑ in the report, we talked about now paradigms?  What does that mean?  Beyond payments which is obviously really important.  Digital is something there in the development state that we really need to crack.  And that can be enabled through this.  There's been blockchain experiments, but X scale is where bee need to go and in a trustworthy way and we have this cryptographic trust.  This is really strong potential.  And that has potential around human rights and people being age to set up businesses and live normal lives even if they're kind of in the margins of ‑‑ if they're in conflict zones or whatever.  But also more kind of basic things like education.  We were looking at how do people get educational credentials certified and recognized globally.  So I am basic things like ability to have that.  We're also ‑‑ I'm also really interested in the carbon financing space.  I think we talk any SDG financing, which is how do we get global money around achieving SDG.  And the reality is innovation is spent on innovation goals.  We'll drive crypto money in there.  So when Geoffrey makes his millions, we'll be knocking on the door and say how you can help support this stuff.  But also unlocking new ways for people to transact and, um, new ways of financing and new ways of incentivizing and there's some really interesting use cases incentivizing people to be part of climate solutions rather than it being something that government takes responsibility for.  So what I am energized by is decentralization.  If we really believe in the development sector that people have the answers to their own problems, well then we have to put our money where our mouths are and web 3 can enable this and definitely provide some examples of this.  So yeah.  I'm really interested to hear whatever they have to say.  Thanks.

>> Two quick points.  But basically I think web 3 provides emerging economies and opportunities to be first movers in a lot of technological development and that is an opportunity they didn't have previous situations being developed.  We talked about earlier versions of Internet.  A lot of debate and a lot of what we use today is primarily a product of thinking of the global knot.  See on a priority level, that's the opportunity web 3 presents from emerging economies to be the centers of innovation and creation and we're going to see the leading companies protocols emerge out of these economies, which is what Jeffrey touched on in his presentation as well.  On a more specific level, inclusion is something that web 3 can really be pushed in emerging economies.  Now, of course the technology is at a stage and there's a lot to be done.  But research indicates that using, for example, blockchain and they can include people who were banking and had access to financial solutions.  You can have transactions that is being done already in some projects that have been in countries like Ghana.  So you can basically move transactions offline and sign them later.  And this provides addressing an avenue to include more people into the familiar system and as we probably already know including more people in the familiar system is a big problem across economies and particularly in emerging countries.

>> AIDANA:  If I may, Kazakhstan, there is a breach in trust between the population to the government, right?  And cats Stan makes by penetration of the digitalization of the governmental services around the world.  So there's a lot of services that are over digitalized and it's a huge amount of data being minded.  And based on that data like government make decisions but those decisions might be very effective because they're based on data that actually population is generating.  But the element of the fact that the blockchain can be added to this digitalization, it might bring trust into between the governance and the population.  So this is the one thing where blockchain is a place of vital role because most in the young countries, this miscommunication between the government and the population and abuse of power and corruption of where it takes place, blockchain can make things clear and it might sound very ‑‑ very small thing, very basically a mentality shift, but it is very vital one.  That's the first thing.

And also, we are living in the age of data.  We have already good afternoon through the data revolution, data driven decision only benefit the businesses basically.  We mind that data.  Users, consumers mind that data.  We don't get any rewards that.  Only the, make money on our decisions basically on the decisions of the math.  Tokenization of the activity that the result is mining certain of a data might bring new web 3 business models to the arena and where the businesses know their customers well, also the customers might keep generating the data, mining basically that data.  And but through that tokenization, they can get rewarded for the activities they have on certain platforms.  And a huge ‑‑ that's what gives an inclusion and it gives a reward system people more active and it gives a choice to consumers to choose the platforms where they see their rewarded in accordance to their activity on the platforms.  It might bring actual web 3 era.  The existing business models might transform into that form.  Thank you.

>> MATT:  Thanks for that.  I would like to come back to you Aidana.  On a question that it is hard to talk about web 3 and in particular crypto without talking about the huge challenges and risks that are constantly in the news.  I feel like every day particularly after (?) there's been a story about how it's a fad or a craze European central bank recently published a statement saying Bitcoin is on the road to irrelevance.  So I'm interested in all of your perspectives but particularly yours, Aidana, the impact on speculation and emerging economies and how governments in particular of emerging economies construed responsible development and innovation within this space.  So I might start with Aidana and if anyone else has anything, please jump in.

>> AIDANA:  This brings a huge tushualence to the crypto currency market, but it really did a blockchain is the foundation here and it's very solid one.  And I think this kind of correction maybe I'm being too harsh here, but I think it will shift the focus to the technological part of the blockchain.  It will help us to look into and dive deep into the technology itself and the potential that lies behind it.  Really we will ‑‑ because the crypto currency is actually ‑‑ limits the potential of the blockchain as a general.  As I told the non‑custodial assets also might be a part of financial inclusion because some of the large assets can be break down into small pieces letting investors to invest into smaller part of that and still have a certain possession that will be ‑‑ safe with the blockchain as the unmutable database.  Right?  And so the merging markets have to first invest more into exploring the potential of the technology.  So if I may tell about the educational initiative that we are now running, we basically this, the area that I told about that might disrupt the business models needs a lot of engineers, a lot of business developers that think in the web 3 model and that's why this actually ‑‑ if you ask other entrepreneurs and the industry players, they will also be very united in the opinion that there's extreme scarsity of professionals globally of people who can really build chains and maintain them and sustain them and apply to certain fields and gain the result.  So as a part of emerging market, Kazakhstan is now focusing on initiatives in blockchain engineering, compliance and business development.  We are launching now less than the largest blockchain educational initiatives at the global scale.  We are lounging a minor program in above mentioned things country wide.  60 universities within the central Asia.  In 2023, so basically this will cover over 200,000 students around the region.  So I think if you take by the let's say venture capital formula 10% of it is 20,000 professionals.  It's a huge influx into the industry and it's a huge toolbase to disruption.  So basically as emerging market z has to look into the educational initiatives and also to the research and development.  So actually blockchain's center is running actively to research and development laps.  First is the cross chain because like there is a lot of ‑‑ there's a chain and there's a transaction between them.  There's a certain transactional connection between them and demand of a market and there is no criteria for the security of decisions.  There is no platforms for the open source decisions, open source tools like that.  So I think institutions from the emergents market have to look into investing more of the resource into the research and development and making it open source for the market that is demanding a market that will modify, improve it themselves and make better use of it and this will certainly will contribute into the development of the industry as a whole.  Thank you.

>> MATT:  Awesome.  Thanks so much.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on how governments can have development in web 3?

>> Kate:  Jery, you want to go first?

>> Geoffry:  You go first.

>> Kate:  It's a tough time, but let's be really honest.  There's crooks and scammers and bad people in web 2.  I don't know if everyone I was a bit young, but the dot com bubble, a lot of people lost a lot of money and there was a lot of scamming and bad behavior.  We have web 2 now and everything we do is on us.  What happened was I guess governments and institutions ‑‑ I don't want to say lit, but we're in a position now where a couple of companies have all the data and we're controlled by the systems.  I don't want to sound crazy.  It's very centralized.  So we really want ‑‑ and the problem with translation, but there's not a lot ever invacation in that space.  It is really important to burn back and go technological development is going to be some scammers.  So therefore, we need to think about around education.  Legislation and regulation.  Singapore already are working with civil service and with the communities and how to have that and they have a lot of row sources.  Japanese government have written a really interesting white paper around taxation and value catcher.  There's a question where the governments want to be enabling environment or disabled environment.  So you do have governments hitting around saying crypto currency some want going to be part of our future.  I don't know how realistic that is.  I'm not advocating that you need to be enabling and say, hey, this is a free for all.  But I think turn it around and putting your head in the sand is probably not the center.  I think education is more important for people.  And a lot of people lost a lot of money over the last ‑‑ if we use a bad example and I think this is real and we need to make sure that there is ultimately inclusion.  So if you're knowing about emerging markets being, you know, sandbox because it is needed based on what the speakers have said, which I completely agree, then how do we ensure that their development is inclusive and everybody catches the gains from that and we don't repeat the mistakes from web 1 and web 2?  That would be my thinking.  What do you think, Geoffry.

>> Geoffry:  And one of the things we warn about is things like para and the language people are using and the lack of consumer education in the space.  Hey, it's like the U.S. dollar, USD is a U.S. dollar.  And then you say, no, it is not the U.S. dollar.  People say this is a stable coin.  It is a U.S. dollar.  And I think it highlights the fact that there's a lot of consumer education that needs to be there.  And I think on the flip side is that I think this was a lot of education that needs to be done for policymakers who understand this space and the technology.  I think it moves very quickly and very often, there is a mix of actors in the space who use the technology in different ways and interact within different ways, but tend to be put all together.  You look at major centralized exchanges like finance and basically a black box like a traditional database.  There is the option of non‑custodial solutions that allow you to hold assets in a different way, more transparent way.  They cluster into one industry.  One actor kind of acts in a way that is detrimental to the industry.  It frames the whole industry.  But there's more nuance.

And the last point I want to make to policy education, I think one thing that was a solid missing is that in many developed countries, there's a lot of lobbying and a lot of resources for policymakers understanding these issues, but I think there isn't as much being done for developing countries that don't haves same resource to understand it, this would be the situation and their problem sets they're facing.  A policy that works for a huge developed country is very much the center of the financial system today might need to use the technology because they are excluded in some ways from existing systems.

>> Very interesting point.  I think just two more things on how the economies have responsible development.  The family focus for emerging economies needs to show that ‑‑ firstly, the creation of standards that are going to form the bed rock for this technology moving forward.  There's a lot of work being done at institutions and standards for creating the blockin that and for other emerging technology as well.  What has happened that some of these international organizations we have seen the global knot has been able to dictate how the standards are created which leads to some extent of immersion.  Ensuring the standards themselves remain open and inclusive that would really benefit the responsibility of the technology as a whole.  And I think secondly and most importantly, products that are developed to cater to the populations in technology are likely to be more inclusive than products developed in the global knot.  And I say this because despite increases in digital literacy and things of that nature, populations do have a slightly more emerging economy.  So they do have a tough time adopting change.  They cater to the most minimum basic standards and if these technologies are developed in that way, they would be accessible not only to people in these countries, but globally as well.

>> MATT:  Awesome.  Thank you.  I would like to ask one more question before we open it up for any questions online or in the room.  Like, from the title of the session, I'm particularly interested in the role of south‑south collaboration within the space both from a technical venture building lense, which I think, Geoffry, you can experience your experience with POKO and also how they collaborate with either to develop the governance framework from this emerging technology.  So obviously it's a super nicent space, but I would love to her from the panelists and hue collaboration might be embedded.

>> Jery:  Maybe I will start with usage and I would love to hear what the policymakers make of it and how to be on top.  One thing that really jumps out to us is that most of the users actually in the emerge markets.  I show the chat earlier about the web free games and how anywhere from 50, 60, 70% of the users come from Latin America and southeast Asia.  And that for me is (?).  Most game launches you start in the major reached developed mashs like U.S. and Europe and then you try to expand into other markets.  Smaller and harder to monetize.  So in a way, we are already seeing a lot of this at a grass roots level, this kind of economic activity that cross bothers in new ways by the technology.  I think that's very, very exciting.  And a lot of this game studio is emerging from this market to come from Japan, from the U.S., from northern Europe.  Now you are seeing them come from various places.  That's a very positive side.  I think it's more on the grass roots level.  I would love to hear on the policy level what can be done or should be done to encourage this trend.

>> MATT:  Kate, I pass it to you.

>> Kate:  You hit one of the challenges and policy space.  In terms of inches, we've seeing a lot of funds, web three funds being set up and they developed economies.  So maybe one of the obvious things would be to some of that capital glow to developers and entrepreneurs.  I think you'll start to see some of those products that we spoke about before ‑‑ a lot of the Pacific islands are dabbling in this.  There's been stories of rich, crypto billionaires trying to buy some of the Pacific Islands.  Crypto havens, but there's Pacific Islands with their own currencies around some issues around climate refugees and how they'll manage that.  They're putting out political statements saying this is where they want to go.

Now Pacific responds and a blue economy kind of smaller populations with the small civil service.  It seems obvious that the group should come together and think about what are the standards and regulatory and legislative requirements here.  What kind ‑‑ if we say we will be enabling innovating environment, what are we going to do to create safety and security around that.  So I think there's groups of countries and places.  What we have seen in the UNDP, is more nimble countries and some of the newer economies that have kind of some of those trust issues that are really grappling with this, but a lot of entrepreneurs in the space.  You have the entrepreneur that hang and the politicians we want to be a part of this.  They don't have the skills and capabilities.  So there is east there around basic education and part of the report was that.  But then I guess in that policy space, anything when you look around digital transformation and hardware and software institutions that in the middle to create policy, there's a lot of space here to be filled.  The accounts and from the lawyers will get involved and, you know, and take their piece of it too.  I think from a policy perspective, what are the principles how different countries want to respond to this is a really important step.

>>  To pick up from where we left off, the educational policy and construct, a lot of emerging economies are taking a lead on this.  If you look at countries in the middle east or even Singapore, I think Singapore is very developed and classified as an emerging economy.  But some of the jurisdictions which have at least some of the early iterations of regulation in place, web 3 did be regulated in a manner that is showing the main inclusive, but also takes care of security concerns sorted with it ‑‑ associated with it.  Sharing of these practices across countries is something that we possibly need to think about, maybe some forum where day come together and talk about what they have learned through their experiences, what seems to work in promoting adoption while also ensuring they (?) considerations.  Something very interesting is they have seen a lot of web 2 projects emerging out of this economy.  Perhaps an incubator of sorts that looks like frequents who are dealing with two emerging economies.  And signing up funds that can incubate the products and help them scale across emerging nations.

>> AIDANA:  It might be a great idea.  The policy making is actually effective when it interacts with the reality.  So the business programs can add ‑‑ include the regulator sandboxes in their program to make those experiments and to bring other regulators from other geographical arenas to oversee the results of an experiment during the business programs.  It might work for the longer periods of the incubation rather than acceleration.  But the business programs can give this data on what is or what is the effective regulatory decision making to be within the experiment, I mean.  Thank you.

>> MATT NGUYEN:  Thanks.  If there's any questions in the room or if there's any online then, I might throw it out.

>> GEOFFREY SEE:  I wanted to second.  Have a forum to understand the issues and at least, that's not often.  In Vietnam, it was frustrating.  We were building a blockchain lobby in 2017.  We hadpeople from the state bank come to us and say shall we buy this coin or that coin.  It is a Ponzi.  Don't buy it.  But there is ‑‑ the industry moves at a very fast pace.  People don't understand what is going on.  It is notacy to understand what is going on because many of the protocols, for example, you have a very decentralized frame.  I want to talk to someone if you're sharing what a tier and I think that makes it very, very hard to understand what is going on in the space.

>> MATT:  Cool.  Let's start with one.  Judith, I'll pass over to you.

>> Judith:  Hi.  My name is Judith.  My question is to POKOing the CEO of POKO.  My question is in Aic inia, we have initiativesfa are looking at how you make payments.  A lot of it is fin tack innovations, but for example, the AU through continental area and payment instead of existence that is I use it for authorizing that.  My question is:  How can we merge what is already ongoing right now in the Web3 space, but also staff that have been there for a while.  Do we throw away the existing infrastructure that has already been built which is very transformational since we didn't have this before, but how do you see those two things happening at the same time?  These have been happening with two to make things more for the Lee.  Thank you.

>> GEOFFREY SEE:  That's an interesting question.  We eight is the intersection of your traditional payment and how you transition that into Web3 payment is reels.  So most customers don't bay in crypto.  And any set up that's been trying to accept money, (?) is not going very, very far.  So we use crypto at the back end more for Ralphing, but we have to find the points where Fiat interactss.  Working with existing reals is very important and I think ‑‑ they were introducing a digital gate which is built on blockchain, blockchain reels and I asked them why do they choose blockchain?  You have digital payments in the country.  And I think their view is you will need some sort of in the change between your traditionalfy yacht currency and they believe that digital 10G can act as a bridge for that floor of Aso thes that can form.  The underlying principals as we design this payment systems we need to think about how the differents interact where thent point and I mean, people are not all excited to go pay with crypto.  It's an interactive experience if someone they were placed in a very complicate the global ‑‑ complicated global.

>> MATTHEW NGUYEN:  Any other questions or someone online?

>> I believe we have ‑‑ sorry.  I had a question.  Chris online.  I will need to unmute him so he can ask his question.  Go ahead, Chris.




My name is Chris.  Best of all, I would like to ‑‑ (low voice)

>> MATTHEW NGUYEN:  You're cutting out quite a lot.  So maybe if you can type it into the chat and we can address it that way.

>> Is it okay now?

>> No.  It's still pretty choppy.  Paragraph paragraph I'll put my coins in the chat if that's okay.  I will put that there.

>> MATTHEW NGUYEN:  You're pretty good now.

>> I was saying I actually agree with a lot of points.  Um, ‑‑

>> A lot of people do not really understand and distinguish the crypto currencies with blockchain.  We had a lot of (?) from the lunar and if you look at it, the governments are using that so for me, I think we should have a lot of conversations about how to educate people especially people from developing countries.  I have tremendous block use cases where you have a lot of storage of records and they have (?).  So blockchain is something we can use and solve a lot of problems.  A lot of time, you shouldn't jump have focus on crypto currency.  Yes.  Crypto currency is actually the first use case behind blockchain.  They'll be changing that narrative on the move of beneficial things.  And also like if they help on this.  Let us know the ways that NDPs are helping people.  Blockchain.  (low voice)

>> Kate:  I think I can be really Frank and say most of it is very highlight‑y ‑‑ pilot‑y.  Lots of uncoordinated stuff.  You will see the latest they're doing a really good collaboration with get coin on quadraetic funding in the next few weeks, which really cool.  We're getting more and more request from government saying what should we think about in this case.  At the end of the day, we need to say look.  Technological develop is missing.  Some people know what is going on and ‑‑ it's not a complete getting rid of one system and a system is coming in.  From my perspective, we need to ensure we're solving real world problems.  I'm sick of this new amazing stuff, new technologies coming in and it is just being about selling people's stuff they don't need.  Now you're getting my real biases.  A lot of it is on games, but we have a I guess I would like to see more money.  More capital and more smart people, more, more, more towards these goals.  And so at this stage, I think collaboration is reasonably sparse.  We're trying to work out how do we crab rail and governments try to work out.  We do have some really a lot of really cool stuff around.  Traceability.  This has been for the last 6 or 17 years.  There's some really this is quite radical and we have a way, way to go.

>> MATT:  Awesome.  100% agree.  If there are no other questions, I might give an opportunity for the panelists to make some closing rushes around their optimistic where this technology can go and what they see their whole in there being and we can close the session.  We have one more question from the room.

>> My question for all the panelists would be environmental and the energic impact of Web3.  It was for the global south.  Imagine for them this conversation is not relevant, but many countries is quite a pressing concern.  Just want to ask what's the role of the global south in a sense.

>> Kate:  You go, Geoffrey.

>> GEOFFREY SEE:  Just from the tech, one of the major protocols was any shift, but I'm not sure you know this proof of work modeld to prove out that transactions have occurs every year.  But overall, the mining and the expensive computation of what is required from blockchains have generally been fitting away as an issue with some of this success who shifts the new model consensus.

>> I think a lot of people missed it.  It was a month ago that went to proof of steak and it changed the MG.  That coin is still on there.  If you talk to technology optimists, they will say this is a problem that gets solved.  Wiggle and we need to solve this and we will.  Butd not so much the other currencies that have moved that way.

>> I think we're resolving energy concerns.  The maintaining of results.  Though I don't have any study, the more it takes to secure the U.S. dollar or British wound.

>> I also have a say on this.  To the base and philosophy of the blockchain of the algorithm of the state, it's really easy and it really gives the work is proven to be better algorithm of consensus here.  There hasn't been done an extensive research and how the widening of the crypto currency was working on a proof of work.  It wouldn't be more green.  There is it's a little bit over market, the notion that over advertisement, notion that the proof ‑‑ it brings to us.  Yeah.

>> MATT:  Thanks.  I think we're just about at time.  So, um, I think ‑‑ I think policymakers by nature are cynics.  So it was nice to have into we look forward to the progress you all made in your organizations.  Thank you.

>> Thanks very much.  See you all later.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  Bye‑bye.  Have a great day.