IGF 2022 Day 3 Town Hall #43 EuroDIG Messages - Internet in troubled times – RAW

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.



>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  My name is Thomas Schneider from Switzerland and I'm welcoming you all to this meeting.  It is meant to feed in the discussions from the you're European and it is concentrating on the messages from the EuroDIG including the youth take messages which is a feature that we're very proud of that we have an intense track for younger, younger people.  Me for instance, so this is something that we'll also hear about.  So the last this year race EuroDIG happened to take place in June after having virtual hosts for two years because of the pandemic.  So we had like three years the same partners.  So first of all, let me thank our friends from Chesterfield.  This is a special effort.  And recognized enough.  In Chester, we organized the discussions slightly different from how we used to do it with the previous thematic baskets that we had.  This time we tried to innovate once more at EuroDIG and instead of having several baskets, we agreed on four so‑called focus areas where that should be like the baskets that the discussions we were trying to link the workshops and the plenaries with the logic of these four focus areas and you will soon hear more of them.  Namely around the notion of digital sovereignty with a question whether Europe is moving in the right direction in order to keep the internet safe and open.  And the next one was about effective regulation and standards and whether this is going, the developments in the regulatory and standard fields and you know the European union is very active and regulating ‑‑ (zoom froze) it was debated only in Europe and then the next one was rather let's say a question about the architectural, the institutional sides to internet governance, to digital governance, whether the existing bodies we currently have today whether these are still the right ones to what extent they would need do be reformed and replaced.  That was also interesting discussion.  And then we had a discussion.  This is no surprise that we called something like were net in troubled times.  That was then, of course, given the situation that we had that really tragic situation we had in eastern Europe and Ukraine.  That was keeping us worried not just about the internet, but the people living in these circumstances.  But we were discussing what digital aspects in this regard would be.  And then again, as I told you, you will look at information about the messages of youth Dig.  So with this, let me hand over to the base player of the IGF Euro band for those who have been there Monday night.  Chris Buckridge who happens to be a very active and good person in the EuroDIG is a member of the board.

>> I'm stealing your mic there, Thomas, about stuff you're talking.


Thank you, Thomas.  Yeah.  That was a good introduction.  Sandra asked me to speak to the two focus areas.  I will try to add a little bit of color, but I don't want to stray too far from the messages that came out and that were really put together with some very great precision by the people.  I think it's a really important role that they play now in helps us to bring that output from the internet governance, from EuroDIG and Internet governance discussions.  So the first year is as Thomas mentioned digital sovereignty is the Europe going in the right direction to keep the internet open and safe?  We had three broad areas.  First was about the regulation of digital technologies has brought more clarity to the economic market.  That is frustrating the growth of businesses and small and medium enterprises in the digital economy.  When developing new regulations and introducing frameworks need to be carefully monitored and weighed to Avoid creating barriers to small interactive players.  In regulating the infrastructure, we should avoid collateral damages to services and operators with economic casts and availability and avoid fragmentation of the global infrastructure.  So tieing in very much to common theme at this year's IGF.  Any regulatory initiatives aimed as exerting sovereignty in the field must be well examined to make sure they do not harm human lives and are in line with the Democratic multi‑stakeholder principles.  So yeah.  Very straight forward there.

Number 2, implementing digital sovereignty should not be understood of building a fortress around Europe, but enhancing Connectivity to allow individuals to stay at the center.  Digital technologies impact enjoyment of individual rights and different countries have different values and visions of the Internet and its future.  While keeping dialogue, the policymakers need to anchor new policies in the value system, human rights and the rule of law.  The European vision of digital sovereignty should also remove barriers for businesses and foster economic growth as is the case for the EU single market, which strides to harmonize rules across member states.  And then the final point there regarding digital sovereignty says a careful assessment of new technologies and tools on human rights should be carried out to avoid violation of individual rights.  And there were three sub‑phonics that were considered in relation to digital sovereignty.  The European vision from principles to action.  Those digital impact on the internet infrastructure and digital sovereignty of is Europe going in the right direction to keep it secure and open.  And there was a workshop also, an international Connectivity interacting the European gate way platforms and the global gate way.  So that was summing up the focus area number 1.  I mentioned it's an area of digital sovereignty that really fits in nicely with the discussions that were happening and are happening at this year's global IGF.  So that's important to see, I think.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you, Chris.  By the way, you will find the messages, of course on the EuroDIG website.  I think there's a link also on the ‑‑ you will find the link on the page of this session on the IGF website so you get to the EuroDIG website.  If you want to see them.  Are there any questions, comments on the messages that we just heard?  Do you think they're still valid?  Would they be very different in your region?  The floor is open for comments and questions on these.  Yes, please, go ahead.  Sandra is helping me with those online.  I will try to manage to get a good balance in.

>> On the side, online participate anticipates, my name is Andre.  I am from Canada from McGill University.  I think that what first of all Thomas mentioned is really important issue.  And there's resolution.  It's important thing to concentrate on what measures do we take to achieve peace in the region?  And I think, ah, about all we have online and IT expertise and expertise in human rights and are the things like that, ah, the most important thing that we could gather and could develop solution maybe to advice something I would hope with technology, the youth experience with home participants and subject of peace is really important.  I think it could be ‑‑ I think it could be relevant the program of the future forums in EuroDIG as well.  Thank you very much.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you, Andre.  I think we all agree that peace is one of the most important goals these days.  Other comments.  Yes, Chris?

>> Chris:  I think what is notable to me about this is, um, the framing of digital sovereignty compared to how its framed in a lot of discussions here this week.  We're seeing digital sovereignty not as building a fortress around Europe, but more about resilience and building robustness whereas I think that concept that we're hearing this week is use the alongside concepts like fragmentation and something that is antis to the global Internet.  Making clear that vision of European visit of digital sovereignty probably very important.  So this is a useful tool in that.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Yes, thank you.  This is a good point with different understandings of sovereignty also not just geographically, but these things may get different connotations.  Any more questions, comments on focus area 1?  And the messages.  I don't see ‑‑ yeah.  Okay.  Go ahead.

>> Digital sovereignty.  We got original that has the most harsh version of digital sovereignty and from Russia, they have digital sovereignty.  So it's ‑‑ understanding meta, for example, is extra organization.  And it also understandable external services.  It is discussing closure of YouTube, for example, in Russia.  This is the example of digital, but may I ask maybe to rephrase the term is not the issue of sovereignty maybe.  The Internet is more global than the territory of any kind of nations.  I understand it was Europe's community try to do, but there is nothing like the digital sovereignty Russian understanding.  Maybe a bit Chinese, but I'm not expert in China, but well, what's happening now is with digital sovereignty especially after the break of the water.  And that's happened (?) so it's not possible to use some services.  So this is the digital sovereignty and some people are calling for digital sovereignty in this understanding.  I think this concept person I tried to avoid this.  Prevent digital sovereignty on this kind.  Maybe we could finding other names of the positive action that is doing in this field, but stop calling me like digital sovereignty.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Of course you were right.  There are different understandings and uses and maybe uses of the notion and it is controversial.  Yeah.  So I think we're all aware of this.  There's no other requests for the floor?  So I think we should move along to the next focus area where it is again, Chris.  He wasn't asking for this.  We were asking him.  Just to let you know.  We are thankful that you can also have key presenters in this focus wear too.  Thank you, Chris.

>> Thank you, Thomas.  My name is Sean.  Reality check do we implement effective regulations and sets right standards to solve the problems of the future?  So that's covering two very high profile issues at the moment with regulation and standardization.  The message is there.  So the first one was dialogue and understanding of the need for standards are crucial.  Policymakers who engage in dialogue understand the problems and the more open to reflecting on the limitations from the regulatory perspective and what are the limitations of standards?  Governments should understand the incentiveis and what are needs?  We need regulation which will encourage and in some cases incentivize.  They should seek to ‑‑ they tend to be more efficient than the long legislative processes and are effective to some extent.

The second message there 49 transition and digital transformation are two different areas with the transition being more of a tool and not an end in itself.  There needs to be a common methodology on how we account for the emissions and the environmental impact of digital challenges to be able to look at the entire life cycle of any digital product.  Common mix doings compare the effects of digital solutions in order to describe their net environmental benefit.  So that's a message very much focused on the grain revolution and environmental issues.  EuroDIG has a long visit of incorporating into those.  The third message securityings ‑‑ sorry.  Regarding a sober crime treaty, we need to Lee specific rope.  When we have a common minimum subsa law, proceed Raul law, conditions and safe guards, the whole framework would provide added value and can be effectively or international purposes.  So that one obviously intersecting with UN levels going around cyber crime.  There were a number of subtopics in this focus area.  It is a regulatory regime.  What are the dos and don'ts.  The second is how to ran ‑‑ where are we and where are we heading?  And then yeah.  Workshop work on the environmental impacts from commitments to action assessing the effectiveness of policies and regulations for the green digital transformation and the second how can standards support the European cybersecurity agenda.  That's it.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you very much, Chris.  Again, this is quite a packed number of quite crucial issues these days.  So but it's very nicely condensed in three fairly short messages.  So again, thank you to dipler GOP.  So yeah.  The floor is open.  Do you think these messages.  Do you grieve with them or do you think something would be missing when you talk about the issues that I mentioned.  The floor is yours.

>> There was an increase in the discussion of the environmental issues and environmental impacts.  I think EuroDIG was very strong on that and bringing it in the theme.  The IGF had a policy network on environmental issues with.  We're starting to see that drop off.  I'm not sure why that is the case or why that moment passed given the situation hasn't passed.  But it would be interesting, I think, to see EuroDIG continue to make that strong connection.  I think there are important connections between the governance and politics around environmental issues and internet governance.  You're both dealing with global resources that don't fit comfortably into traditional state models.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you.  Mark, please go ahead.

>> Mark:  Thomas and Chris, I strongly endorse this.  I heard the tech enjoy talk about environmental issues in the context of the g DC.  Those of you who looked at the commenting platform, I suggested as an additional topic for the GDC the green digitalization and reflection of how much EuroDIG has covered that issue.  I think the message is exactly right and the term ‑‑ and the purpose in maintaining the profile of it in the message is exactly right.  Thanks.

>> Thank you, Mark.  Sandra?

>> Sandra:  Yes.  Thank you, Thomas.  As the Secretary General of EuroDIG, I can speak a little bit on the process side of why this topic failed a little bit apart this year.  And indeed, it has been quite strong on this topic and the years 18 had started, 19, 20, 21, even talked that topic over the pandemic and discussed it very intensively.  I have to feel the policy network took away our audience because we are all doing this on a voluntary BASIS here.  If there is something going on a global level, you have to think about where it distributes your resources and I think many decided at that time to contribute to the global IGF.  This includes Europe per se.  So I think for the future and the way of how national, regional and global IGF of working together.  It would be good that we align processes.  So to say if one region starts, and instead of doing something in paralocal on the global process.  I felt when our ‑‑ I do understand that this is difficult and every region has sovereingty and so has the global IGF as well, but I think we might be a little bit better stream lining our processes in order to share those limited resources that everyone has available.  Thank you.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Yes, thank you.  Maybe another reason is that the crisis in Ukraine and the war have been a reason for a shift and a few issues.  I guess we'll see how this winter goes with energy and all the discussion about moving from false ads to electricity.  I'm also quite convinced that the issue will not disappear, but it will become bigger and then this is something to discuss in one particular framework and how this particular framework of IGF working groups in EuroDIG how we play this together.  That is something that can be looked at in more detail.  Thank you.  Any more?  I don't see any more requests.  So that would mean we would move to the next.  Capability of governance bodies to cope with the current challenges and also opportunities, of course.  Thank you, Yern.  Over to you.

>> The need favors a mighty stakeholder approach when discussing the problems and when identifying.  So it is usually regarding the internet; however, the current escalating things are challenging.  There's a need to take a fresh look at the mighty stakeholder approach.  One of the issues to consider is the voices of use.  Of course, the global tangents threatens mighty stakeholder approach, but at the same time, they make it more and more visible that it is really needed.  And, of course, it always has to be some effort to include young people because you can't just do it once and then it's done because young people get older and you have to include the next generation again and again and again.  So this is the mighty stakeholder approach.  The next message was about AI.  After agreeing on global principles and develop the guide development, it is trust, transparency and human centered AI.  There's a need to let regions and countries adapt those principles to the realities and concrete documents.  There is potential risk that needs to be examined.  Humans need to be in command.  We see a lot of AI regulation coming up and this message is ‑‑ it's remarking or reminding that we need in AI because it is used in technology, that is used across governmental boundaries.  We have the AI coming up and risk based meaning ‑‑ when there's minimal risk and high regulation or even outlaw something users when there is high or unacceptable risk.  This risk‑based approach has to be calibrated and I do think that this calibration needs to be done and is not yet done correctly in the AI act, but this is up for discussion.  What humans need to stay in the loop of cost.  Concernings certain message, the cert message is about digital identity.  The digital identity approach is led by the sovereign principles meaning user centered and independent providers from noble interoperability.  You need to be measured not only by the usefulness and functionality, but more importantly by how it is respect and reflect a fundal human rights and there needs to be technology to ensure greater global interoperability and force the greater user adoption.  And I think this is very important because current identities are limited by national boundaries.  For example, you cannot use a qualified electronic signature that's been done in Switzerland.  The UN there is no global interoperability.  That's the reason why this message, um, focuses on global e operability.  I would, um, of course ‑‑ there is reflection of human rights is very important, but it's not only important in the implementation of the technology, but also in the use of this connection.  So if you have a perfect to ‑‑ too much information is required for purposes where this information should not be required.  Then additional identity can be used in a way that is not reflecting fundamental human rights.  So I think this is something that needs to be discussed in this contact as well.  The final message is about technologies that go beyond our planet.  This is about delay on the networks.  Transmission takes longer time.  It is more involved than a global communication network.  The current extension of base activities pushes a development of new communication and technologies beyond our planet.  For this new technologies, new standards and protocols are needed to ensure that these networks and protocols remain open.  The approach is needed.  So we should apply things that we learn from us to interplanetary technology as well.  And this sounds very futuristic, but to remind you, a lot of tools currently use the internet, interplanetary file system, IPFS.  It is partially already working and being used and it is useful also when you use it on earth and not just in space.  So these are the four messages.  I would be happy to hear your remarks, opinions on it and give back to Thomas.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you, JORN.  We need to make sure we don't fall too much behind the time schedule.  Let me ask you if you have questions, comments again.  It's quite a rich broad issue and most frequent word is multi‑stakeholder as you can easily see, or at least that's what I saw.  Any comment, if not (?) online.  (echo).

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Now we hear you about 50 times.  So you're there.  Try again.

>> Can you hear me?  I'll turn off the video.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Yeah.  We can hear you.

>> Okay.  Well, hello, everybody.  Unfortunately I cannot participate in person, but nevertheless, just highlight one particular point, which I think is important.  And this goes to the third issue.  Any particular importance of human rights because, well, of course everything is globally related, but what I see more is only in the European approach, human rights are so much at the center when I look at AI deafers of the Council of Europe.  This is really built around human rights and this is not something that is a BASIS on other consanants.  I think the most important issue might be in the future how to align the right focal point offer European region on human rights to somehow align with what other continents or jurisdictions.  They will always be some fault in between, some break in between.  Therefore, whatever on the European continent has tried as a regulation.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  It seems the internet has been interrupted.  But I think we got the point.  This is a challenge that is not true and it will not go away so quickly.  I think we have taken good notes.  No other requests for the floor, which is actually good.  Then we can move quickly on to the next.  The last focus areas and let me give the floor to ‑‑

>> Thank you for upgrading (?) Finland.  Focus area fir, internet in troubled times with mild expression for what was going on, is going on.  And, of course, this is the background.  This is the content for the three messages from that area.  First concerns fragmentation, is to say Europe needs try.  To preserve internet for (?) to avoid regulations for Internet infrastructure.  Another opportunity to avoid fragmentation is use the impossible of ‑‑ second method is about ‑‑ that is to say declaration on the fast of the internet, DFI.  It says it is a key process that would need more engagement from countries and stable holders and came from south.  It refers to net mundial and other examples are ‑‑ the dangerous FI McDonald be used as preparatory input to the global, digital compact.  And also – last the third point we need a variety of these very briefly were the three messages.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you very much.  Any questions, comments on this?  Yes, Andre.  Thank you very much.

>> Actually three really important key points and I suppose that fragmentation is the major concern for existing ‑‑ the whole existence of the internet.  And, ah ‑‑ all the force and even the governments could be devoted to avoid these kinds of I think that role of national governments is to implement international ‑‑ from point of view for economic development, ah, the internet has a value.  One, it is the internet.  One is not splitting the difference or they have different governance and not interconnected with each other.  Russian example.  They try to disconnect.  The Russian from the global Internet.  They have the little is a sovereignty.  They try to implement these types of policies.  The role is avoid thank you veryp.

>> Thank you very much, Andre.  I think I have seen is

>> JORN:  I can't agree more.  What I wanted to mention is that I think we should be very careful with anything that goes into the direction of Ministry of true he is seeing that we need to have the battle of different opinions and we have seen particularly in the pandemic that sings it where it is today's if you force one opinion as being the truths, then you will harm society more than you help it.  So I think the call for fact checking initiatives should be cautioned.  We should not see it as something that will necessarily help counter this information.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you and I would agree with you.  Whatever is considered truth or how to ‑‑ whatever is considered reality should be the end of a deliberative discussion process in a society.  On the other hand, there are some facts and figures that you can actually let's say at least refer sources to and say where you got the figures from and then so there is some merit in fact checking, with interpreting facts is another thing.  I think we should make the distinction between not measuring but thank you very much for this discussion.

Let me quickly hand over to Katarina.  She will explain to us what ‑‑ what were the key messages from the youth.

>> Thank you very much.  I am from Ukraine and this year I had a chance to participate in this is a ‑‑ dialect is a particular word for this event because it's organized by the content of discussions is org the discussions are focused on the areas relevant for all of us now.  We focused on four areas related to the art piece and most of our messages are focused on education and literacy because as I thought, and for us, any of ours functioning in the Internet ecosystem and further engagement and, um, engagement and use of internet related technologies.  We also could echo the discussions on sustainment during the EuroDIG and we support the encouragement of funding, of research ‑‑ reduce user recycle and also on reason in spinning the debate further about threats associated with that as well as the social media platforms which are prone to this information and gap.  That's why we would like more fact checking and more verification of credible and accurate content.  On a side note in the internet area and in my country as a very important topic these days because it's not just travel times, it's very upon ‑‑ I live in Italy and Olga lives in Poland and no online participants could join from u crane.  Energy is in a very serious shortage and that also poses for us additional questions for consideration on Internet resilience, on Manager, a lot of examples are focused on what the government is shutting the internet on its own there, but what is it?  Thank you.

>> While we're sitting here, some others are trying to find a way to survive with no electricity and that includes no access to the Internet.  So thank you for this.  Any questions, comments on the youth?  Chris?

>> Chris:  I think the EuroDIG program really does stand out as something really valuable for the participants and I know there's a lot of effort that goes into making it a value and making it preparing those participants to participate in other Internet governance discussions such as IGF.  I hope we can push it to as many people across Europe kind of service region.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Sandra please?

>> Chris:  I know there's a huge amount of work that goes into it and the number of people there.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  I can confirm this.  

>> Elizabeth Choa and basically both of them are responsible that in the past years, it became a huge ‑‑ the strongest and dynamic element where we still had not traveled.  This year was really, really extraordinary.  Big applause to eLists.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you very much, Sandra.  And really this is an achievement that you can be proud of and that we hope that we can continue in a sustainable way.  Let me move over now.  Sorry, yes.  I've seen you in many sessions and you have made great contributions.  I'm very impressed by that.  So thank you.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you.  We have 11 minutes left if I am not mistaken.  So we need to speed up a little bit.  In the winter, it brings us to various areas.  You may have less than plan.  Say a few words about next year's EuroDIG.

>> Thank you.  Again, from Finland which is one of the co‑organizers, local co‑organizers of the EuroDIG 2023.  Welcome to the EuroDIG ‑‑ building it between two cities and two big lakes.  By the time we ordered the snow to be gone, they noted summer should be at its best just before mid‑summer, which is 19 to 21 June.  It is full of uncertainties and risks.  And this applies to the Internet too.  There are other problems and usual hasn't woken up to the dangers of the domination by tech giants.  We tried to do something about it by legislation, by regulation and meanwhile, of course, the bad guys are active as ever whether you call it DNS abuse or whatever.  But in the face of these risks, there is also a remarkable resilience.  It's shown by all stakeholders they have reason in defense of the Internet that we know.  We feel that it is basic lengths to function whatever happens given if things fall down all about ‑‑ all around the core should hold.  And finally, there is hope.  There must be hope of rebuilding bridges and Connecting program lies at some point in the future.  So this is why we have chosen as the overall motto of the yearo dig 2023 ‑‑ EuroDIG 2023 Internet troubled time Brazilian hope.  This is how ‑‑ around these concepts, and risk, resilience and hope, there will be three focus areas of the EuroDIG.  I stop here because I know that we are short of time.  Thank you.

>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Thank you very much.  Yeah.  I can only confirm that Tamara is a very, very nice place to be mid‑to end of June.  I hope to see everybody there ideally physically.  Otherwise you will have to leave your room lights on until mid‑night and start them again at 2 o'clock in the morning to get that feeling we will have up there.  Thank you very much and let's quickly move over to Mark, if I am not 15, we will have a consultation process about the global digital compact.  So Mark, please.  Thank you.

>> MARK:  Thank you, Thomas.  I don't think I need to say too much about it.  So wa we're consulting on is basically what's in the tech invoice questionnaire survey to seven sematic areas plus the opportunity to propose additional areas.  As I mentioned before, I put in the commenting platform that EuroDIG has.  Comment.euroDIG.org and digitalization as one suggested additional sematic area, but that doesn't preclude respondents making other resources for sematic areas.  So, um, the commenting platform what I did is I extracted relevant parts of messages from previous EuroDIG meetings that are relevant to most of the pneumatic areas that were identified in the sector general's Exxon agenda which then would pick up in the that's what I have done.  That's a kind of steer or guide for respondents that this is how EuroDIG ‑‑ so anyway, ah, that's what we're doing.  The timeline has been adjusted because ‑‑ it want a postment of the summit of the future, but rescheduling because of the crowded agenda and the General Assembly next September.  So, im, so the summit is now September 2024 as opposed to next year.  And so the tech invoice office of change the deadline to 31 March.  What we have got is 31 December.  So we may change that so nobody is responded yet to the consultation.  So please promote awareness of it and distribute it beyond the Gd C, what I'm hearing is that it's ‑‑ I'll stop.  Thank you.



>> THOMAS SCHNEIDER:  Yes.  Thank you and your remark is very pertinent.  Although, many of us are fighting and arguing for having a large as possible multi‑stakeholder element in the GD, this.  It seems that there will use the channels to view your views in this consultation.

As we have a very dear representative from the finished Parliament with us and you just ‑‑ sorry.  The European Parliament.  I'm not the member.  Forgive me.  Normally not always on my forefront.  Nea, if you would like to say a few words.

>> I apologize I could not participate from the beginning with you here, but then the one that already taking place in the finished paymental when there was a preparation hosted by our committee of transportation and digitalization of the national Parliament and the one patch.  All I know big delegation or individual member but welcome to Tom.  It's hosted by the university premises.  It is the first then actually together with the INCs and also it's the broad and some of you that's been one whole city for radio communication or tips design.  So you can find everything in that city even if it's not the capital.  So I met very much welcomed that we do have these times also putting the titles.  It allows very good discussions next June. 

At this moment, they have some snow, but then June, I cannot promise that there is not snow, but normally the sun shines until it's the time of the summer that you are not disruptive by the night if you so wish.  We can have the ‑‑ the national Parliament and incorporating with NGOs and ministries and others.  Great that you had this session already here.

>> Thank you.  I have been in Tampa earlier July.  We swam in the fast of the lakes.  It's a quite nice Red color somehow in the nice lake.  You still see where you're swimming.  So with this so my wrap up will be very short.  Thank you all for participating.  Thank you for joining.  Thank you for linking EuroDIG to the global IGF and linking the global IGF to the discussions in EuroDIG.  I think this is very important that we have also these pan channels of communication and interaction.  I hope you see all in Euro big.  There's also a possibility to join have a nice evening or whatever.  You have a nice day and see you soon.  Thank you.

>> So, hello, good afternoon, everybody.  Or good morning or good night for those of us joining us online.  We greatly appreciate you coming by our town hall session of the policy network and the data initiative today.  It's been a long IGF week and we're all hanging in there and it's been a wonderful IGF, may I say already.  We are very thankful for having been hosted here by the secretariat.  I would like to tell you over the course of the next hour more about the activities of the Internet policy network and the recently incubated and data sphere initiative.  My name is Martin Allen.  I am the deputy Executive Director.  Yeah.  It is not very visible on the slide deck from what I can tell.  I ask the IT colleagues later maybe to see if we get it in higher resolution.  But I will have a short round of introductions.  We will then talk more about a report that we recently have launched on Monday here that was supported on behalf and will afterwards have an introduction through the policy network programs.  We'll then hand over to colleagues from the data sphere team and then we'll be closing with an outlook on what we have in store in 2023.  In particular also in regards to activities aimed at Africa.

I think I would hand the virtual microphone over to you, Tracy.  Although, first I will talk a little bit more about our activities.  You might not be able to see it here because of the resolution, but a few items I think to mention is the mission of the policy network is to have a multi‑stakeholder exchange across three main policy silos.  We're been working on data and jurisdiction with contact groups building trust related to the question of electronic evidence, crossed borders.  We also had active exchanges in the content and offis diction program related to content abuse and recently also brought out framing briefs and transparency.  We'll talk about more and then also domain and jurisdiction program related also to the question of the abuse and other topics related to trusted notifiers.

Since 2019, due to considerable also enabling support from G(?) have been able to bring out regional and global status reports on the topic of cross board are digital policy, the first one from 2019 and then 2020 one we collaborated on with the economic regional commission for Latin America and Caribbean.

Last but not least, the initiative is a new exercise related to data governance that we have been incubating for one year including also the building of the team and global coalition and we'll have to tell you more about this after that.  Now I can hand over to you, Tracy, to introduce us to the topics related to the Africa report and introduce our kind speakers.

>> Tracy:  Good afternoon, everyone.  My name is Tracy and I am the international research and project management coordinator at INJPN.  So I am supposed to have the opportunity to present the I, in JPNs.  It was launched on Monday as Martin mentioned.  So for this section of the program, we will be joined by Dr. Alison Gilwald, executive director of research ICT Africa and part of the authoring team of the report and Laura Theresa Kruger who is senior policy officer on the governance unit at the federal ministry for economic corporation and development in Germany.  And once again, thank you for your support to the ministry and to GI sad.  It is on cross border digital policies for Africa.

So the project goal is to have multi‑stakeholder participation and to provide information needed to develop interoperable policy and regulatory frameworks for the digital 21st century.  Support the digital single market and contribute to Africa's agenda 2063 and the UN roadmap for digital corporation.  The report is therefore a result of occurring knowledge dialogue workshops.  In depth data collection, the utilization of regional mechanisms and partnerships all with the aim to consolidate the information needed to enable the capacity building to ensure and to pursue an inclusive digital transformation based on evidence.  Similar to finding Martin just presented as well to showcase we had the reports of global status report and Latin American regional status report and the Rep Bradder challenges that came up in the Africa report that was just issued.  Namely the disparity of unilateral measures, there was coordination challenges among numerous actors, the goal in the debate and data extraction and aspiration to regional integration in the single market.

And to highlight some key three areas, we can't really see them, but to highlight some of the key three messages from Monday's launch, on how data sovereingty can be realized and the benefits shared through reciprocal protection of data and continental policies.  Number 2 was the data deficit on the continent and the need for accurate data that can foster the attainment of the SDGs and finally one of the key take away is a common African voice in international fora.  Finally this slide gives us a visual.  Blurry visual.


Of the progress so far with the last phase that you can barely see, but the last phase it will be launching of learning modules based on the content of the report.  We are excited to develop these modules and plan to make them available and as many learning tables as possible in the spring of 2023.

I now would like to turn to Dr. Alison Gilwald from the research ICT Africa and Alison, I would like to ask you.  Or invite you to share your thoughts on what the report brings toes discussions on data policy in Africa.  Over to you, Alison.

>> Alison:  Thank you very much, Tracy.  So the report looks at cross border data flows which have been a critical issue in the content of the Africa data policy framework and particularly in the content of the continental free trade agreement, all of which are depending on the creation of a digital single market and very importantly within that context.  The growing economy in the across the continent.  So the report draws on a number of methodologies used in order to assist the perceptions of various stakeholders on the subjects.  I think it is a good barometer.  Relatively sample of people but in two various knowledge dialogues, inputs from local players and international layers.  It is a strong barometer of regulatory requirements needed in order to create the free flow of data run on the continent.  It was national interests and protection of personal data that will flow across the continent, but in order to ensure that we are able to realize the benefits of this data economy, I think the number of interesting things that came out of this was the strong view that Africa required this coordination.  So the initial part of the study was really done before the Africa data policy framework was finalized.  In that regard, a lot of people call for the coordination.  The framework now really provides.  It is going to be in the implementation, but the framework actually ‑‑ it supports.  So there were a number of other issues.  This is paro meters ‑‑ barometers and there was a strong sense that Africa needed to develop a common narrative.  There was a need for a narrative that would describe Africa's vision and hopes of a single digital market, of a coordinated market with regulatory certainty that would enable the kind of data flows and value creation that we'll need on the continent.  There was also a view that we needed to do a lot more in terms of the environment that we need to create on the continent for this that we obviously need to review some of our existing policies and are existing law to align it with international principles in this area.  Only while we concern the opening up data flowing.  It is important because of the global players that we are also Aineing ourselves from an economic point of view, but from a governance point of view.  The very clear view that Africa needed to develop a common position and for international negotiations in these area be able to represent an African position that reflected African interests and allowed us to engage more effectively in global governance.

So the order important areas that arose from the report were that we needed to ensure that there was further development of data governance in the sense of allowing for the formulation of various data regimes that would allow free flow of data.  And that we also needed to look at the issues of greater regulatory certainty on the continent that was enabling this environment and would allow us to enjoy some of these benefits.

The other issues that arose here with the need to coordinate data policy with the ‑‑ there was emphasis for greater skills and (?) enjoy these benefits on the continent.  And I think the other important part of this is that it's proposing as we move forward, it supports a number of the requirements of the policy framework that will require implementation.  So some of the next steps being looked from this is a certain aspects of policy experimentation that will allow for these data sandboxes that are being proposed and also number of the areas that would enable the data flows that they would be further work coming out to support the implementation.  That challenge is going to be in the inprimation.  Tracy, there were a number of other ones you will

>> Thank you for sharing the nuggets from the report Alison.  To our online audience, links from the reports executive summary in English and French can be found on the link that is so thank you again, Alison.  And if I can now turn to Laura Theresa.  Thank you are for the ministry haven't to make this possible and please can you share your emissions of the work.

>> Thank you, Tracy.  It is great that Ann was able to launch the new status report on Africa just this Monday entitled framing.  The development of the strategies and procedures is an important thing.  Many of our partners in the union and its member states, if we want to shape is in a sustainable and inclusive way, we need greater policy coherent and behind.  We close the gaps and to strengthen we are pleased to have a trusted corporation with the jurisdiction policy network as Martin said in his introduction.  The original status report and now in 2022 the regional status report in Africa.  I agree with the German side about Ambassador who has highlighted the launch event on Monday especially great that the reports findings have been and still are discussed here at the heart of Africa, at the heart of the union spine.  And at this IGF, I found numerous sessions that have highlighted the necessary etof a national and regional corporation.  To my mind, the regional status report for aggression can be one useful.  Also the existing opportunities.  And (?) very interesting findings that the report comes to.  It has been co‑created of African stakeholders who have shared and contributed.  We hope the recommendations that they make corporation among African countries in order to promote free data flows.  Tracy has punched that out that its findings will be turned into online learning modules and will present it in spring.  To this ask, great potential for feeding the results of the community's discussions into national and regional policy making.  I am already looking forward to the final results.

>> Thank you for sharing your impressions of the work.  Thank you also, Alison.  There may be time for some Q&A at the end of the town hall.  But for now, I would like to hand back over to Martin.  Thank you.

>> Martin:  Thank you Alison, Laura, and also Tracy.  Before I jump into the next woman, a quick reminder on the activities and drafting of the report is also there to engage this community and also to see what additional insights we could also together hair and put towards implementation.

With this, we will now move to the next program point, which will be presented by my colleague Mr. Francis who is the director of IPNPGF.  He will take much if we ‑‑ if this is the case, I will let him take the floor from within the internet.

>> Thanks, Martin.  I think I have the 80 and Id also request the IGF to give access to Robert Young who just joined and will be speaking on this panic.  It is a privilege to introduce the work of the policy programs that's been done over the last year.  The goal for the promise programs is address ‑‑ it helps to identify the applicable due process standards in the process of making data requests to service provider located outside the jurisdiction.  The content and jurisdiction program deals with moderate issues and across finally, the domains and the office diction program deals with the 82 of:  When is it appropriate to act in the level of the domain system to address those duties?  We organize an ongoing and dedicated safe space where more than 40 key stakeholder groups come together to develop the commission.  Each of these contact groups has a mutual coordinator in the community.  I am delighted to share the process of the work today.  Robert, you have the ability to take the floor at the moment.  Can you hear us?  Maybe we come back to Robert who is the leader Council for the department of global affairs.  He is the neighbor.  The work that we stereono the content and jurisdiction program and particularly on the work and she joined us as the report.  The content and jurisdiction contact group has produced a number of outcomes over the years all of which be accessed on the INJPN website.  There were contents 2021 for the forefront of the gender for the contact group.  In 2021, the toolkit on cross boarder content was launched.  It provides an overview.  That is identification overviews; over the years the contact group has worked on a number of issues.  In ‑‑ an Italian course we had jurisdiction to issue a global D listing order against a search engine operator.  More over a refuse to have the course as it deemed the guidance to address and solve the legal issue of the first actual D‑list were removal order were clear.  Also, this year framing brief on meaningful transparency was released offering a shared taxonomy and aid the design, development and implementation of meaningful transparency measures by states, companies and regulators.  From a company that seeks to come up with transparency reporting policy, to a regulator when considering that measures.  One of the burns thank you for listening and I hope you find the Atkins relevant to your work.  If you have any

>> Thank you, Julia.  Robert is the legal Council for the department of local affairs and who is also the coordinator in the justice diction program

>> Great.  Excellent.  Good afternoon.  Greetings from Canada.  One more reason I wish I was in Addis today at IGF.  I will be here

In terms of ‑‑ I will briefly speak to outputs.  As to the other ‑‑ with the other contact groups, our main achievement this year was the production of the toolkit which focused on data and jurisdiction more precisely on electronic evidence.  This toolnd ‑‑ I think the link is in the chat if you want to have a look.  Post together the most receipt products or work products from our group that reflects to work.  In simple terms, the data of jurisdiction contact group has identified problems relating to data jurisdiction has identified how best to frame those products as identified elements that will be part of the solution of it.  We have no pretension or allusion that we're writing treaties or establishing binding rules and that I think is part of the electiveness of the it brings together stakeholders from all key sectors and creates a safe space.  In looking at very possible frameworks for cross‑border access to evidence, our conduct group has done quite a significant work and I would encourage to you look at the materials on the website of the rather than I said try to create a treaty or something that's binding, whether it's a big company, a small company, a government Civil Society, watch dog organization, a request.  If we look at landscape today, we have the EU regime being developed but still not completed.  We have a new protocol added to the Budapest convention on cyber crime with more states signing that protocol and more states joining the framework Budapest convention.  We have negotiations at the UN on a proposed cyber crime treaty.  We have late beings being ‑‑ these were processes happening in parallel, in realtime and we're convinced that the materials we used will be helpful for actors in but equally meaningful that would help companies develop procedures and regimes will help governments develop legislation and regulations.  So, um, with the engagement and significant investment by members of the contact group really has been quite a remarkable journey where there is a like the AAIJF.  We're always looking for more to be involved on data and jurisdiction.  So feel free to reach out.  Brian, do you want to tell us the value that you see in it?  Brian Brian yes and thank you, everyone, for having me here today.  I wish I there was with you in person.  So the domains and jurisdiction program I want where the progress that we have made you have the contributions of the dozens of multi‑stakeholder participants we have.  There are rules that started to be rolled out.  The first is up around improving the workflow to address bottleneck.  In the program, we talk about two different forms of online abuse.  Technical abuse is where it is very appropriate and the ruled but also we consider questions about when our arms our online continent, when can they use to the youth about business ‑‑ I look to any time a bottleneck comes across my desk.  There are real solutions that comes out of the program.

Second on that second type of the online content harms, we have developed a topology and framework components of trusted notify relationships.  So relationships where you work with an expert and third party to identify online harms, setting forth the elements as far as what goes into those Rems.  I know there's a number of registries and registries that are looking for this type of relationships.  This is a hello document to somewhere what those look like.  The contact group put out a toolkit which is a program pretense this is a document that has informed registries and registrars and those seeking to reports abuses online immensely.  It's this sort of document along with a publication from a few years ago, the operational approaches that it really served as a foundation for so many progress and work that's gone on around combating DNS abuse.  So there was to I'll give you two concrete examples.  The first in 2019, there was a document that came out that was called framework to address abuse.  And since being published, more than 50 registry operators and ridge stars including both CC, TLD operators and GT(?) that framework document was based on the foundation, on the shoulders of the work of INJ and the domains and jurisdiction program.  The second is something that I work for the institute exists to not just try to make abuse letter but for the betterment of the entire DNS.  It is built explicitly by the operational.  This is something that goes back to some of the recommendations from the contact group it's hard to if you are not someone involved in DNS abuse they have created net beacon and coming from a recommendation of the contact group and then consultation with Internet and jurisdiction and anyone can report.  It's a centralized abuse reporting system that instead for the best man of the interpret and it is hard to overstate the impact that INW.  Things that have got implement the combat DNS abuse.  Thank you for the time.

>> Thank you very much, Brian.  I would like to thank Robert and Julia.  I believe we have a question, but at the end, will

>> Thank you to you, to Robert, to Julia and also to Brian to showcase the implementation of the activity today is also gain to underline.  So we still kept working at it and now we'll make sure that we see Carolina in the beginning and we then hope to also see the slights as she will be going through the different items related to this knew organization that we're been amrating. 

>> Thank you so much, Martin.  I am one of the founders with him, Lorain of the data sphere initiative which we have the honor to have, to be joined by team Daves, one of our senior fellows of our last cohort.  We introduce this new nudge‑profit and again, thank you so much for having me today.  I'm also sad that I cannot be with you in person.  This global network of stakeholders who are interested and see the great importance value of building a child frameworks to responsibility unlock the value of data and as you have seen in hours right here, each of these words have a very important meaning and definition, especially when the value of data, we are talking about not owner personal data, but known personal data.  We're gathering this global network and we work with them upon the intelligence in the lab and each of if you can go to the next slide, ah, thank you.  Yes.  And we produce both various publications as you so in the slight here and the link will be shared where you can access this through intelligence.  We also do the doing as we bring actors together, bring knowledge together and create five regional gaps and try to foster this collaborative government.  We also have the I sprayed some ideas such as across the board or sandboxes for data, which is a very (?) proposal.  You can check how we upon ‑‑ and Martin will talk about that morning a Sunday.  This is some of our core, tangible outcome and outcomes if this we also work with various international agencies and just haven't and partners such as the global data for development network, the global partnerships that has now data values.  Many you can join us in many ways and the efforts has a friend, this individual has a project or institutional partner.  And has funders that are always new of the outcomes that we are pleased to allow us today is our vast data governing after loyal possibilities.  We went there to the bibliography to check how the fuel has evolved and we identified those silos and the system emergency coming and all of that is crucial to understand the meaning and the utility of the concept of the data sphere.  So I invite our fellow to achieve himself and he's the Director for Surge of another organization in the space called Corrected by Data.     >> Thank you so much.  Sorry I can't be there with you in person.  Just a few moments about this literature and really that mirrors what the initiative has been seeking to do expecting.  So just to give you a head on line, we took to bin can last year on data governance in both scientist and over the last 10 years from data govern eyewitness barely being talked about to being a very fast growing topic health areas and increasing range of spaces.  But with that growth comes some challenges that we have some are the data prosection ‑‑ how do you lock the value for all and they capture that but also people are often coming from some quite different starting points and they try to start on picks some of those different sub‑regions of the data governance discourse in academic.  Behind me, I put up the interesting diagram that came out and they fish that merged and mapping of the themes and topics.  Quite a cluster of data governance, looking at legal, and policy and engagement issue.  Behind me, this is a legal regulation quite connected some really Connecting the concrete local questions of how you govern data or other forms of data to the bigger cross cutting pictures.

The other thing I will say is how we will pack what's going on with data governance.  It has key terms.  We think about human groups involved in any governance question about the norms being evoked and the particular data sets.  For the work, you get connected and you look how to give bring those terms to the floor really helps they focus on specific consequences of data and then the standing the cross cutting aspect becomes really key.

>> Wonderful.  Thank you so much, Tim.  And also thank you so much, Carolina for having introduced users by scratching the surface of the many activities ever since we started incubating.  An additional quick item I wanted to bring in.  We just recently started a second cohort of also international fellows from all different continents some of which have been actively contributing to discussions whenever data governments would pop up.  So thank you very much for that.

Looking at the time, I try to be concise with a sneak peek of what we're doing.  One of the key things is we open for the Q&A on the topics of the data sphere.  So the announcement would like to make and if the IT staff would show the slide there is something we call an Africa forum on sandboxes for data.  This is a project that we will in early 2023, this is a methodology where we are applying and concrete outcomes and pathways at IN GMA.  There is utmost important and agency with the focus in‑we are currently in the stages of inviting interested partners to engage in this mechanism and it will be a mechanism that will be very conclude and outcome oriented.  In order toch we'll have the first part that will run up to June 2023.  We will start with a curation and adaptation of the recently created learning colors and also content where we extend together with INJPN and also a report that we have created as a it is a completely new concept, but it's a very empowering concept when one things along the spaces across borders.  We will create an introduction yourself to unable of relatively quickly on all of that information that is just respond.  So experts that go through this learning module and we would love to unable utilization and they're able in Africa from different partners so they can then engage in a ‑‑ there will be a space for a multi‑stakeholder workshop.  We'll bring together civil vote, of mentorship mechanism on the BASIS of the knowledge they have been unboarded on and we will try to simulate 1 to 3 cross band for doing.  They will have candidates for subsequent implementation with selective partners, technologies that might be necessary.  We're not only talking about regulatory sandboxes.  We're talking about the operational realization with all the knowledge we have curated and expertise we have in the two big networks we have been engaging, there is really wonderful momentum at the end.

>> When I think of sandbox and this little wooden box, would you like to explain at some level what the concept actually is?  When we look at sectors like the familiar markets, they have been creating in order to lift certain regulation or simplify certain things with legislation and you can almost think of them like, you know, free trade areas.

>> Okay.  I hope you forgive me for this, I really want to understand the point being made.  So there are situations where you might say it's a tax‑free zone or some of their benefit coming from investing in this particular area and you call it a what's this other one?

>> The thing is how do you operationalize that across borders and that's also where the reference to the nomenclature because sandboxes come from an IT world.  Not only from kids playing in the round.  I'm an IT guy and when he starts sandbox, so we have cryptographics that I'm trying to figure out how the legal does that.  Okay.  Thank you.

>> VINCE:  You can always interrupt you.  For us, this is one activity coming from different regions, we are in advanced discussions with stakeholders and Latin America and the Caribbean and we are relevant whole countries and partners for a global summit that we would like to organize next year and this global summit would Mainly on responsibility data, sharing.  We do believe also through the framing would help us break the silos that Tim has chained and we have seen in and also be acknowledged for some of the very cutting edge and advanced approaches and concepts related to community data, ownership and other thins that might not be as familiar.  This is something that we'll announce latter of 2023.  For those of you engaged, the core mechanism is already funded, however, we are extending.  For estimate related questions might also be docked on to this overarching mechanism so we can get some granularity and parity.  That's enough said for anything that we have been doing.  I think we still have how many?  10 minutes?  10 minutes left for Q&A and Vince, you already kicked us off with a good question and I'm here.  And if you agree, I would just collect two or three questions and then we get back depending on who actually got done answering it.

>> Please introduce yourself and ask the question.

>> Okay.  Just one question.  Okay?  Okay.  Basically we're publishing academia, but we're talking about the informational right and also justice.  I'm just asking because look at it your website.  You have experts from the five continents.  Our numbers want to join you, how could we do it?  Yeah.

>> All right.  The question is remembered.  I'm going off to the next question.  Anybody else in the room or online?  If you're asking online or if you're raising your hand, I cannot see anything.  You might have to rely on the colleagues we have on the Zoom call.  Exactly.  I'm looking at it now.  Do we have any raised hands there?  I don't see any colleagues raising their hand, while we're in the room, we're waiting for other folks to step forward and answer the question.  So, um, so please, Vince.

>> When I hear transborder, I sometimes worry that this is.  The model people have is geographic.  And a agency is taking place.  But in the Internet, everything is adjacent to everythings.  When you say transborder, you need to keep that every programmable device is adjacent to every other absent firewall s and con straights.  Does that do anything funny to your concepts of transboarder data flow and sandboxes.

>> It will loop to the question of engagement.  I think one thing that we have not introduced to you is the actual definition of the datasphere and I'll understand it because the framing of the datasphere and what we understand under there is that we see it as a three‑dimensional complex dynamic system that has, of course, the did thea sets and what we consider data and technical understanding.  We also have the human groups that might be interacting, process, reading benefits and extracting value and going alls way from the individual continue and there is the dynamic also of the norms.  Norms can be regulation.  They can be terms of conduct, codes of conduct, but they can be engrained, rules of how that interaction between the data subjects, for catch, and the data itself is both ruled.  Once we start framing, from that perspective, we can start like a computer topography splicing.  Some of the perspectives that might be coming from a trait point of view or that might be coming from a cross‑border data governance and technological sense point of view.  This is part still on the ongoing investigation.  We very much see transborder as something that we frame through the data sphere, not through a geographic map.  Once we start unpacking, the whole notion of data serenity and data localization and you start explaining to stakeholder the realities of one file of it not being on one server at the same time, but being place is between different areas because it is cost effective.  Sudden Lou you're countering some of the ongoing narrative that things should be localized.  It's not the entire answer, but it certainly is something that keeps us awake at night of trying to convey the complexity.  Just over the pond and everything is fine, but there is that whole notion of I think before I come to you, I quickly answer our colleague from Beijing that was also very patient with us.  So to answer your question, the organization is by one.  So there is a lot of very relevant work going on in all continents, which is why we're very happy to engage through the structure and through the datasphere, a project partner or additional actor.  At the same time aligning with core values that we believe are actually engrained into what it means to responsibly unlock the value of data for all.  I would suggest you reach out formally and then we will bring our board and also a stakeholder together.  We will investigate what extent might be a way of collaborating with each other and understanding more about the data spaces being created in the people's Republic for that matter.

>> Thank you.

>> Pleas introduce yourself.

>> Currently, I am a member of the national privacy and data Council.  The fact that there are no more questions is certainly because of the richness of the material you presented.  Thank you for the insight and the fellows.  I am left with more objective questions concerns the two kinds of sand a boxes.  I would like to know more which are you referring to when you mention an operational sandbox, how far will you go in the operational thank you very much for that question.  That's the second one.  So I will collect the second question.  Please introduce yourself?

>> Hi, everybody.  Thank you for this incentive because it is very important for Africa.  So my question is what is the value or the place of end user on that?  Africa end user on that project.  Thank you so much.

>> Sure.  Thank you so much for that question.  My name is (?) and I sit in the African Union high level on emersion technology.  That's actually involved in the drafting of AI strategy.  One of the issues that we have been grappling with as a comedian on that initiative is when you look around the image debates and the global digital cost has really been trying to define a way of Africa's policy would actually lie and they control this around basically and not only in the global, but we are kind of seeing many African or global countries trying to assert their position as well.  For example, the south African government has launched a Cloud and data policy framework.  So the whole issue I think for me basically has really been governance.  And what really Data Governance framework would look like in the African context.  So my question is perhaps around whether this discussions are and what exactly are we regulating in this instance because many sometimes we talk about Data Governance.  But we don't know exactly what we should be governing.  Thank you for those questions.  This is where things get exciting.  It is about the silo.  I would like to start with a question that we got there Chad concerning the value for the end user also in that regard.  As you know, there's always a very ambitious data purpose framework that's been endorsed by the African union.  What could be done to empower African stakeholders that are relevant if you the continent and not the other regions.  But each time folks talk about this framework, that's the question.  It will demand also technical solutions at one point and awareness and literacy.  So we should at least the speediness there will be plenty others that we're going.  At least do our part in putting something order in that is.  We will like to provide and go in and what is the value of data from an African point of view and those are questions in the global north, nobody has found an answer for you yet either.  I hope you don't mind if I use another three minutes to answer the remaining questions because I was told we should wrap up.  I invite also my panelists online or something.

>> Yes, Carolina.  Jump in.

>> If I can add to some of the discussions?  And what Vince was saying.  Of course the technology allows ‑‑ that.  But the reality is we have over 160 legislations around the world that in a way or another requests and asks for some form of data localization in certain way.  So you do have this governmental experimentation that creates problems for legal interoperability and they create data flow even if dough don't ‑‑ one thing we see in the research and point out, for example, in the governance where we point out actors Alight of actors are developing grass roots or international organizations develop international levels and principles around how data should be governed for communities.  For example, regional populations or patients.  So all that impacts how data will flow.  Just now this morning in another event that our colleague is also present, we were presenting out research where we benchmarked over 34 principles coming from across roots and also organizations on data.  And the question that touched the issue of operational sand boxes and finalizing here, there are lots of technologists helping with this and there is firsting that needs to happen even for policymakers.  They support flow that is respecting.  So I want to finish here but again as Martin said, we are embarking on a (?).  It will be globally relevant.  So please keep in touch if you are interested in joining that test.

>> Yes.  Thank you, Carolyna and quickly then to our colleagues here from Paraguay and also from the, why the goal and the discussions of the AI and also data governance is relevant.  For the Sunday ones, this is all a meet to an end to come to a point where we start having an honest discussion about how future data protocols might be looking like.  We're not talking about protocols of little frameworks, but technical stick that one point will be necessary.  We will have an investigation of potential licensing of trusted data exchanges in this regard.  As we have the event, who have the greater good of our societies.  There's a lot of work to be done across silos because there's a lot of different knowledge here and to refer and I start with that also to what Carolina mentioned the technical new innovations that are coming.  Those issue things we are engaging on stage.  We're talking to folks on synthetic data on animation of data and health.  Those are the cutting edge developments.  Now they haven't found themselves yet into any legal document because they're so fresh.  And we just came back from eating on the back log of those massive layoffs.  And we had a long discussion there from this new ecosystem of responsibility AI.  They were telling us, listen.  We're desperate to have some type of data governance system.  We cannot in many cases transparently investigate the algorithms that we we have at our disposal.  Those things are having that cross discussion and we don't really have much time to wait on embarking this.  This is why we said that's the next big thing and we need to throw our weight behind it.  Ellison, you had a question.

>> All devices being adjacent and the internet as it exists and the concerns that this diverse legislation is causing fragmentation on the Internet.  Refer to that in the content of the of African Union framework.  It's trying to address the fact that while people describe an open Internet, the actual outcomes of that were extremely uneven.  I think creating a common framework and that also acknowledges the data as a strategic for Africans and data value creation and Africa, public value creation which is not a private of the outcome of norms at the moment.  Redressing the uneven distribution of both harms and opportunities that we see across the world and we see very much in Africa.  While completely acknowledging the fragmentation, you want to free flow and we have developed a common BASIS for managing that that will allow that.  Simply wasn't available.  They hold all this data that is simply not available for the majority of Africans.  So I think this framework on the questions is really, you know, a framework that sits up the data policy framework for the Artificial Intelligence and advanced networking kind of initiative is trying to look at.  Obviously still very high level principles, but I think it is important to address those outcomes we currently have.

>> I think it closes a little bit of the whole development that we saw with the cause of the launch of the report and also now the announcement of the next activities.  It is this perspective that we should bring also into those discussions.  And also making sure that we have a lot of representatives from the continent at the very beginning in the mix because there's a lot of added value here contributing to the global discussions that have been taking place without African participation.  So with this, I thank everybody so much online and offline here for having indulged us for at least 10 minutes in addition.  Looking forward to questions and also remarks online.  Don't hesitate to reach out to anybody.  Tracy and also our friend Joshua and same goes for things in the policy network which will keep pushing forward.  It is very important activities in the coming years to come.  We are surrounded by a complex ecosystem and data governance is important and many other things that need immediate action and this is where we hope to contribute.  With this, I am closing this session and I hope you enjoy the reception that I guess is being organized downstairs.  So thank you very much.