IGF 2016 - Day 3 - Room 2 - WS3 - SIDS Roundtable: Death, Disaster & the Internet


The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Eleventh Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Jalisco, Mexico, from 5 to 9 December 2016. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 


>> MODERATOR:  Okay, welcome.  Welcome, everyone.  Let's start the workshop now.  Can you please join?  Thank you.

Okay.  So good morning, good afternoon in Mexico.  Good afternoon, welcome to our fourth small and developing states round table.  Please join us at the round table if you're sitting in the audience.  That will be appreciated so we get a round table going.

For those not familiar with how we operate, we are not running a panel discussion.  It's everybody involved in discussion.  We are actually having everyone participate as fully as possible.  So we'll have some lead discussioners who will introduce themselves when they speak.  I won't go through introductions.  And just introduce what the topic is.  It is our small and developing states round table, death, disaster and the Internet.

So we're going to begin right now.  And what I would like to do is just point out that one of our key discussants from Haiti, Stephan Bruno was about to discuss with us the work he had done in Haiti after the earthquake.  So just before we begin, I would like us to do a moment of silence.  And I'm going to play a video just without any audio to show you on the screen what happened in Haiti.  Can I get the video up, please?  And just a moment of silence.  Thank you.

Video, please.


Thank you very much.  Thank you for the moment.

Okay.  So to organise our discussion today, we have three main discussion questions.  I have them up on the screen now.  And those questions are:  Can we share some real stories of natural and manmade disasters in your region?  And how the Internet and ICTs in general were utilized to either predict, react to or recover from the effects of same?

What I'm going to do right now is ask one of my colleagues from Jamaica Carlton Samuels to introduce himself and perhaps give some insight on what may have happened of his experiences in the Caribbean.  Carlton?

>> CARLTON ANTHONY SAMUELS:  Thank you, Tracy.  My name is Carlton Samuels, I'm university at the moment.  I do ICT for the consulting across the region.


I hope it's better now.  So the Caribbean is in the path of hurricanes.  It is probably one most people know of.  And we are also sitting on faults.  So we are also earth quake‑prone in some regions.  A couple days ago, for example, there was a shake in Trinidad and Tobago.  You've seen the video introducing what happened in Haiti with the earthquake.  And recently we had a category 5 hurricane that we got lucky in Jamaica.  It went by us.  Slightly north of us.  So we just saw the tail end of it.  But it devastated Haiti again.  And we had some damage from hurricane in Belize which has recovered mostly from it.

So the weather is a blessing and it is a curse in Caribbean.  And we find ourselves every year preparing for Atlantic storms or hurricanes.  We find ourselves trying to get by even with it.

Preparation is key.  And we have regional disaster agencies.  Coordinator of most of the disaster in terms of preparation for it.

In our region, ICTs play a great role, major role.  But of course the big one is radio.  Radio is the means by which we broadcast most of the information about natural disasters coming.  It is also the means by which we connect to people outside the cities, in the rural areas.  And it is also a way for us to even get information back to others around the world.  There are mobile networks.  I don't know if you know the penetration for mobile across the region is usually 120, 150 percent.  So mobile coverage is extensive in the region.  And what we are seeing in the last while is that in some areas, there is some resilience in the mobile networks.  In Jamaica, for example, we've seen some resilience there, not so much if other places, for example, in Haiti, there was a serious breakdown in the mobile networks.  I was in talking to colleagues in Haiti during the storm.  If they were in Port‑Au‑Prince you could get to them, if they were outside of Port‑Au‑Prince you couldn't get, you couldn't reach them.  When I finally got through to them, they told me that most of the mobile infrastructure in some areas were blown down, damaged.  So there was no network, mobile networks available.

What was interesting was that amateur radio, ham radio was key in providing information to people, both the responders on the ground or just telling people what was happening from on the ground in most places.

So we know of a fact that ham radio is very important to communications in disasters.  And the same thing happened in Belize.  Belize is a slightly different thing.  And probably they will tell some more about that.  In Belize, the hurricane that came through did some damage to the mobile infrastructure.  It knocked out a fair amount of the wire line infrastructure with the downing of posts and cables along the way.  But they recovered fairly quickly from it.  The one thing that is always a bug bear to recovery is power.

For the most part, those mobile antennas that are powered by alternative power sources; that is to say they have solar or they're battery powered, they came back fairly quickly online.  But in areas where they were depending on the public power sources, it took a lot longer because the power supplies took longer to get in.

So, out of our experience, two things are important to us.  One, if you look for preparation, it's mostly radio.  Analog radio.  When it comes to recovery, analog radio plays a part.  The mobile networks are there, and they are more resilient than before to recover.  But amateur radio, ham radio is playing a great role in connecting people.

The power situation in most areas is always the last bit to come back together.  And so the time to recovery of the communication networks, where they're depending on the public power, it takes a lot longer time.

So alternative power sources from solar and so on especially is very important to the recovery of the communication systems.  I'll stop there.

>> Tracy:  Thank you, Carlton.  I'm seeing hand going up.  Pacific colleagues.  So to balance the discussion from the Caribbean and Pacific, I'm recognizing colleagues from the Pacific.  Sorry.  Thailand has a comment to make now.  Japan.  So let's start with just identify yourselves and go ahead.  It's a round table have so go ahead, feel free.

>> Maureen:  I'm the latest email I have in my file is a Tsunami warning from Solomon Islands in the Pacific.  It's very, very recent and it's from the municipal Pacific network.  And it really warns governments and prepares them for possible Tsunamis.

So the earthquake has happened in the Sol oh mans like just today.  And again the fact that it actually gets a warning out to everyone.

And I know that in the Coke islands, although I don't have a story to share, but the importance of this particular software is really impacts on people like us if there's an earthquake.  For example, in South America, it warns us just to prepare for a Tsunami.  So I just draw that to your attention.  Thank you.

>> Yes, hello, everybody my name is Yasin.  I live in the south of the Dominican Republic close to the border.  I want to talk about two points Kathryne was talking about in 2010.  January 2010.  That day, the day after I was in contact with Stephan Bruno.  He had one of his interviews, got injured by the earthquake.  And I was in contact with reason old who was another colleague in the Caribbean.  He said the containers which is on the top of Port‑Au‑Prince they were running on generators.  So diesel generators.  Very old diesel generators.  Then once they stop, if they run out of diesel, it's very hard to restart them.

So the issue was getting ‑‑ I'm talking about the next day.  There was no government, no nothing.  I was in contact with Skype and with SMS with Stephan.  So at the same time trying to get an ambulance to get to him and getting in contact with the authorities of the Dominican Republic, the regulator.  The head of the regulator sent his driver to get 50‑gallon drums, go to the border, fill them with the diesel and go into Port‑Au‑Prince and try to go up the hill because the trucks could not go up the hill because the road was broken.  So trucks with heavy trucks with diesel could not go to fit in the diesel generators.  So that was the first thing.

How to keep the signal.  Because Stephan, on the other hand, was telling us through SMS, it's very important to keep the signal because rescuers are working on SMS to get people under the rubble.  But we had to get the diesel.  And there was no authorities.

So that was the thing.

And the third thing was the people who do the work, who maintain all these systems and networks and things, they were running to their houses to see if their family was still alive and looking how to feed their family.  So how at the same time can you ask them to maintain the systems while their family?

So basically we had also to work with the food trucks that were coming from the DR to have someone from there take the food and bring them to the families of the people who were maintaining the systems.  I'm talking about two, they days after the hurricane.  No government or anything.  This is not only the electricity, the power, how to get it to the right place, how to feed the people who are maintaining the systems, while the rescuers were getting people from under the rubble.  So all that is a big thing.  You cannot predict it.  You cannot prevent it.  You don't know where the hand would be because maybe it would not have fallen.  So the problem was the road.  So it's very difficult.  And people.  For me, the most critical thing was making sure that the people who maintained these networks during the rescue operation were fed and they had to eat, to put their family because during that, they were providing service for thousands of people but they still needed that support.  So that is the point.

>> Tracy:  Thanks also bringing up Stephan's role.  I know it's Sala hard to say.  I saw Zumi.  So a few hands.  Salago will continue there after.

>> Thank you, Tracy.  Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen.  I'd like to thank Tracy for hosting this very important panel.  In terms of the Pacific, similar to what Carlton mention Wednesday the Caribbean, we also face various natural disasters and man made disasters.  And we have colleagues from Cook Islands sitting here.  Andrew from to know go is back there.  Andrew, could you raise your hand?  And I got Caanan from Kiribati.  And his island's sinking.  Just kidding.  But, no, it really is sinking.  So we have Tsunamis as Maureen mentioned.  This year in Fiji alone wed a category 5 so Cline Winston.  65,000 families were rendered homeless.  The impact in terms of financially on the country was $650 million in damages.  The primary school that I went to was shattered to the ground.  Corrugated steel pipes that were railings that were twisted.  And Vanuatu had cyclone, had earthquakes, von cantic eruptions.  And also in terms of man made disasters, we've got flooding happening.  How you have commercial developments, particularly resorts where you have resorts where you've had to reclaim land, due to unsound environmental management practice, that's had repercussions on severe flooding that's literally flooded an entire town where the international airport in Fiji is based.  So that's quite significant.  We've got ocean acidification in tongue oh where water turns red also parts of Sydney, the ocean.  Also generally climate change.

In respect to the question, how has the Internet been used to predict, react, recover, Maureen showed a brilliant alerts triggered by emails.  We also have mobile apps that's prevailing globally.  That's also available and accessible in the region.

Quite aside from that, a lot more people are using social media as well as the disaster management offices who use social media to get the message to the people faster.  And in terms of reaction, I was ‑‑ I'm speaking in my personal capacity.  I was a volunteer during cyclone Winston in one of the provinces that had the most damage to their electrical and telephone power lines.  So what that meant was the land lane was completely down.  ATMs were completely inaccessible.  Chaos, conflict and that sort of thing.  And also other examples of how Internet was used to mitigate the risks, we saw the community, the Internet community in the Pacific use GIS more powerfully in ways that preceded the past three years., for example, if you go to the Fiji roads.  I like what he said about the diesel.  We can relate because we're islands.  330 island of Fiji scattered around.  In Fiji we literally had jetties damaged, which meant that the ships have no where to dock.  So in terms of taking relief supplies, there was no capacity in‑house even within the country, even with ships and Navy, and the naval fleet to respond.  So we had to rely on our neighbors.  Thank you, Ganella, for paying your taxes, Australia, New Zealand and the French and run about Asia who flew in to sort of help rehabilitate.

And in terms of recovery, the recovery process is still ongoing.

The Internet has been an amazing platform in the fact that it brought greater awareness, greater crowd sourcing, information and needs in a very coherent manner and I'll stop there.  Thank you, Tracy.

>> Tracy:  I saw a few hands.  I'm seeing Glen.  What he'll do.  We're going to have that let's say five more minutes to try and get some of those cases out before we move on.  So let's just around the room and proceed.

>> In 1995, where Internet first global conference was held three years back, and also Internet was widely used especially the city government had their website 20 years ago.  We didn't quite take the lessons all the way to the 311 ‑‑ 2011 because another earthquake and Tsunami hit Japan.  And I was relatively involved in relief works trying to use ICT, Internet mobile.  And we did some study and we tried to help municipalities and stuff.  Too many stories within this time so I wouldn't elaborate of.

Even after that, we invited APT guys from Indonesia.  How guys know APT?  Which is an ISP association created nonprofit right after the Tsunami and went with us really airplane to help the Indonesian national relief centre with wireless network and stuff like that.  And they kept continuing till today to be prepared for any disaster like volcano eruption may happen.  The survivors.  So we learned from them.  We tried to have another team in Japan called IPdot.  We stabbed last year as a voluntary nonprofit.  And went to earthquake this year in April where more than 50 people killed.  And I was part of this scouting team and tried to help the volunteers with printers, wireless, tablets and stuff.  Some of them we already had started to talk with the mobile operators before it happened.  And we also did some study of what are the real issues and problems that we can better serve for the next round?  We will continue to do so.

As well as I went to Fiji last year in July.  Asia‑Pacific telecommunity hosted workshop on disaster and ICT.  And I and another were asked to play a role playing exercise of all the government guys and industry guys and others of 80 people.  Real psychological exercise.  80.  What if it hit now Tsunami.  You assemble a team.  You are tasked buy small groups.  It's really not ‑‑ it tells you in a logical manner what to do.  But your instinct, you have to face the situation and stuff like that.  Which was very of really appreciated.  We may do it again.

And last but not least we went to Nepal about a month after the earthquake last year trying to help the Nepali wireless networking ‑‑ who was the ‑‑ 2014 by putting all the wireless networks inside the Himalayan mountains, many of the villages who used to have the wireless network equipment were destroyed.  So they try to restore some of them.  I will try next month and also conduct how effective these uses are.  We often talk about how nice to have the Internet for relief works and stuff.  But they are very little few evidences or empirical studies that you can show.  We spoke with UN guys in Nepal at that time and they in theory recognized the need for the citizens to have the connectivity.  But they're sort of disaster relief special teams, equipment are usually geared to the special volunteers and NGOs and UN bodies.  They are e talking about community communication programme as a future project, last year.  I'm not too sure.  But the beauty of the Internet of mobile is that those guys who are really hit can send the information, we need this or we need that directly.  And so if you can manage to have a good database and logical system using these, these applications are more important than infrastructure.  And I think we need to see a lot more evidences or studies or knowledge for years to come.

Japan and Tokyo is considered to have major catastrophe within 10 to 30 years.  All people say that.  But we are not really prepared.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you, Izumi, for that stunning information there.

Is it Ganela, is it you next?

>> Thanks. Ganela, women with disabilities, Australia.  I'm also going to talk about cyclone Winston in Fiji.

And this was a case study done by the Fiji disabled persons federation.  So if you can imagine where you have people that can't move around very much, it really is very difficult.  So this cyclone winston earlier this year, there were a number of issues for people with disabilities.  They missed out on the distribution of humanitarian aid because some of the distribution points weren't accessible.  Information circulated on the distribution points weren't inclusive or accessible to people with disabilities.  Transportation or means to access, those weren't accessible and available.  And mobility aids, crutches, wheelchairs, whatever were destroyed or damaged in the cyclone.

And there was a lack of disability disaggregated data.  So rescuers didn't really know where to go to help people with disabilities.

Some of the cluster meetings for planning evacuations and so forth were in inaccessible venues.

And also information on warnings and other disaster‑related information and updates, they need to be inclusive of people with disabilities.  So in the deaf community, for example, information should be circulated by text messages if the mobile network's working, of course.  Or for captioned videos, or signed interpreters on screen.  And I know if there's no power, that can also be difficult.  But those were some of the recommendations coming out.

And now in the Pacific, the Pacific disability Forum, have worked with five Pacific island countries and set up a disability‑inclusive disaster risk reduction network focusing on raising awareness about physical infrastructure, disaster response services, public service announcements and emergency access and evacuation centres.

And if I can briefly mention about the common alerting protocol where this is being adopted in a number of countries, including Australia.  And it's an XML‑based system for ex changing public warnings between alerting technologies and it is an ITU recommendation.

So the output can be provided in a lot of different formats, to mobile phones, radio, TV, sirens as appropriate.  And it's multimodal systems.  So accessibility features can be built in.  That's also multilingual.  And it's been adopted in U.S., Canada, Italy and some implementations in Sri Lanka and Thailand.  So obviously needs to be considered if it's appropriate in some smaller developing island states.

But I just wanted to share with you, thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you, Ganela.  Glen, you had something to add.

>> Glen Mcnight, I'm with the IEE site and IEE smart villages project.  And IEE smart villages grew out of a project that IEE foundation and the UN foundation looked at three mandates that are with the SDG, the reliable electricity, reliable communication and patient records.  And they were looking at best practices.

So one of the projects that they worked on in Haiti is creating an entrepreneurial solar trailer system to provide power because that was one of the big problems, as the gentleman was mentioning earlier about petrol.  Diesel was $55 a gallon.  It was extremely expensive, if you could get it.  And also there was an issue of when people went into the main city to try to find people, they didn't have street maps.  So open street map in Ishudi was doing a very good job in locating those people because the disaster workers couldn't get to it.  So there was a lack of power to the disaster workers.  And there was a lack of real solid information.

Where we don't really focus on the first line of defense of disaster because that's really other professionals do that.  What we've done in Haiti since then is set up an entrepreneurial solar trailer system so that people can have power.  And it's charging their cell phones.  It's basic electricity for their homes.  It's not going to power an air conditioner or a freezer, but it's basic power.  And that's the last billion people.  You have to look at reliable power.  What's important is since that earthquake, there's other earthquakes that have happened, other hurricanes that have gone through the area.  And this is an ongoing issue that you have to maintain the equipment.  So I'd be happy to talk to anybody, talk about smart villages.  We are looking at best practices.  There is funding available for good projects.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you very much.  I want to wrap up this particular area.  But I'm seeing two hands.  Colleague from to know go.  And gee, from tongue oh and what seem will have the last input on this particular section of the discussion.  So Andrew?

>> Andrew:  Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity.  I just want to point out some of the what wed in Tonga in regard to the disaster.  I think we discussed some of the post activities after the disaster.

Just a little bit of background of where Tonga is.  Probably most of you are aware where it is.  Very close to Fiji.  But also it's very close to the ‑‑

So we are one of those island nations that most vulnerable to Tsunami.  And one of our main objectives from the government side is to look at a way that we can do early warning.  In a case of earthquake, like the one that just happened this morning as I woke up this morning I look at my phone, there was an alert.  There was an earthquake in California.  And I guess it triggered a Tsunami warning to that side of the Pacific Islands, including Coke island ‑‑ cook island.

In case of Tsunami in our side of the island close to the Tonga trends, it is estimated that less than 15 to 20 minutes the first wave should hit the island.  So you can imagine what kind of alert that we can alert the people.

If we turn to SMS or the phone system, we have experience that when a lot of people sending SMS at one time, it will create a great delay.

So if we send out a massive alert through SMS, it might take about 20 minutes to get the message.

So one of the projects that the government has been looking at is to trigger an alarm using the FM frequency.  And this has been a project that we've been working with Japan, government of Japan.  I'm not sure if it's been deployed anywhere else, but it's something that we're going to work on to trigger an alarm using a radio.  And it will disseminate a warning to households and key people.

Also, we're also engaged in using the ICD as a way of telecommunication.

One thing that we have learned from the past, one of the Cyclones hit one of the island groups, it destroyed the whole infrastructure for communication.  There was no way talking on the phone or mobile or anything.

So what we turned to was to turn to Vsat system.  As soon as we activated the Vsat system, we can use Voice over IP communication.  And I think it's one way for the Pacific.  It might be different situation in other areas.  But in our areas, with the small infrastructure like that, once it's been destroyed, there is no other means of communication.

So we turned to ICT as a means, as a solution for the communication.  And I think that's enough for me unless there's any other questions.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you before I go to ‑‑ there's remote question and comments.  I want to take that first.

>> Thank you.  Okay.  This is from in the Caribbean.  He says.  Is usual.  After ‑‑ small generator look like a male pig with pig lets.  Everyone in the neighborhood brought their phones to charge.  Yesterday, I was solar charging for funds.  Pakistan use it.  The Caribbean and Pacific islands don't seem to be aware of it.  These are phone size inexpensive solar Chargers.  Importance of ham radio during immediately after hurricanes.  That's it.  That's the message from Dale Williams.

>> Thank you.  From St. Lucia and it's a she.  Hi, Deidre.

>> Quickly, two things.  A lot of smart systems technology solutions, small‑scale happening in the pile.  How do you scale up?  How do you make it government adopt that as a national policy to prepare the communities to have those systems?  That's my question.  Because it's nice to have a question that works one day in one place with foreign NGOs coming and doing the thing, and it's very different from having a national system in place and working after.  So when you never when the earthquake, or little before when the hurricane come.  But how you make that is everywhere?  It has to be a national policy.  And how do you convince government to get those systems in place?  That's the first thing.  The second thing ‑‑ what was the second thing?

We'll get back to it after.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  So.  Hasim, I'll move on to the next question.  Maybe we could get that slide back up.

So the second question is:  Is there a view that climate change and emerging environments and challenges have affected and will continue to affect the small and developing states in the years ahead?

Is our increasing use of the Internet and technologies contributing in any way to these challenges?

I see it on the screen I guess that's straightforward.  So climate change and how it's effecting small island states.  And the challenge that we are facing.  So I think my colleague, Rhea, who will introduce herself, will start the discussion.

>> RHEA YAW CHING:  Hi, everyone, my name is Rhea Yaw Ching, I'm the adviser to eastern Caribbean states.  And looking at this topic beforehand, it reminded me that of a statistic that I saw many years ago where it said 50 percent of the Caribbean population lives within 1.50 miles from a coast.  That is significant on all counts.  If we talk about just climate change and vulnerabilities to disasters, the situation puts us in a very precarious situation.

I think the example that was given in the Pacific Islands where the gentleman over here, his island is sinking tells me that the situation is not exclusive to the small island developing states in the Caribbean.  But of course to all small island developing states generally.

If we look at the role of technology over the years in affecting those challenges, we have to, in fact, look at what those challenges are.  And we're talking a lot about the environmental challenges and the response challenges, but if we look at the social, economic and environmental impact to the Caribbean, if we look at the Haiti, the statistic tells me that Haiti's economic activity 10 years, is 1 years later is 30 percent lower than where it would have been prior to the earthquake.

If we look at other statistics like Hurricanes that pass through, I don't remember the name of it, that passed through Antigua Barbuda, 200 percent of that country's GDP was wiped out from that hurricane alone.

And if we even look at the population dynamics, which is where we need to extract our resources from, our skills base from, even if we look at 20 years later, at the example of Montserrat had a population of 12,000 people in 1995.  Today there is a population of 5,000.  So the population never recovered and Montserrat's chief claim has always been:  I do not have the base of skills anymore to be able to even counteract some of the or mitigate some of the issues facing us.  Or even take advantage of some of the technologies.

And so where we are right now is in fact as the gentleman said out of the Dominican Republic, we're playing around a lot with technology.  That is undeniable.  Technology has played a very crucial role, particularly led by the disaster in Haiti.  We saw some extraordinary things happening, but they're still very isolated.  And I think one of the more important extract coming out of this session and other sessions is that very point that he talked about that I hope we can explore further which is out of the hundreds of countries in small island developing states, understanding that in Dominica, for example, with the disaster recovery centre of 5 against Trinidad that may have 35, how are we able to collaborate, cross‑fertilize our interests, our resources, our ideas, our technologies in a real way that reduces the burden on any one country to be able to do it all.  And I'll stop there.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you, Rhea.  In the same light, my colleague from the Pacific, Caanan, who is a USG fellow.  I see Pat Hussein who wants to speak.

>> Hello, my name is Canan.  I'm from Carabas.  I'm one of the youth fellow IGF.

I'd like to share my experience.  I'm sorry that I didn't share it in the first place.  But I will make it quick.

Back in my country, we are very vulnerable to climate change.  Similarly with other Pacific nation.  But the only difference is that in recent times or in our history we have never had any like Tsunami, cyclone or anything like that.  But the only serious problem is with the rising of sea level because we only like I think 8 meters above sea level.

For your information Kiribati is low level islands.  So if the Tsunami or cyclone were to hit Kiribati directly, it will whip out not only the infrastructure, but the lives of the people of Kepas.  So that is what we in recent times, the only problem is with the rise of sea level with the king tides coming into the land.

But there are sometimes I think in last year when, last year, the beginning of this year when cyclone Pam hit Tonga  or Solomon Islands, the effect is reaching our lands.

And regarding like the Internet or the technology, how it can be used for predicting the disaster, the technology in my country is not that advanced.  So the only thing that we use is the meteorological predictions that were distributed in the media on Facebook and on aired on the radio.  So that is the only thing that we use to make the public awareness of the people before the disaster.

But it's real important because it comes on time to avoid our problems, especially those who live by the shore.

But for the second question, if this were to happen, I'm sure, yeah, it will wipe out not only the infrastructure but everything.  I think that is all I have the share with you today.  And thank you.

>> PATRICK HOSEIN:  Hi, Trinidad and Tobago.  We have no major disasters that I could talk about.  And in some ways it's bad in that we have become complacent and we are not making preparations that we should make when it does happen.

So in terms of research, we have been trying to do some research in these areas, but I think collaboration with many of these islands would be great because you have a lot more experience in some of these things that we are trying to do.  So for instance, we have some students working with some, a company to set up a sensor network to be able the collect data and be able to predict, make better predictions using ‑‑ techniques for things like flooding.  And I'm sure a lot of you are doing the same things.  And we could learn from you.

We did have one recent man made disaster where we had a near complete blackout.  And this was due to, in our case, our power from natural gas.  And it was because of the lack of proper fault tolerance of the pipelines et cetera.  So we are working with the power company, for instance, to increase our fault tolerance.  I think our network providers need to do the same thing.  We still have one single landing point for our fiberoptic lines.

But the point I want to make is that in terms of research, I think we can learn from each other.  And I think especially Trinidad, we can learn a lot from you all.  Thanks.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you very much.  So I'm seeing 1, 2, yes, so I recognize Michael, introduce yourself.  And then Andrew from Tofga.

>> My name is Michael.  ISOC ambassador.  So the first thing I'd like to do is say thank you for having me here.  I don't need to lecture anybody about the effects of climate change on small island states.  This is something that is going to continue to grow in severity.  And it's something that needs to be taken incredibly seriously.

Now, when we talk about climate change as it relates to ICTs or Internet Governance, unfortunately there is very ‑‑ there seems to be very little interest in this topic in this space.  I mean, we talk about sustainable and inclusive growth, but yet there's absolutely no talk of climate change.  I think this might be the only session here at the IGF that is even mentioning it.  That to me is a real pity, among other things.

Now, with that said, I don't mean to also get so upset about ‑‑ it's not about upset at the community or anything like that.  I recognize it's not necessarily a sexy topic.  But there are many solutions out there that we can do, that we can focus on, that we can use, that we can use multistakeholder solutions, that we can work together to help mitigate this specifically as it relates to the Internet.

Now, I want to focus on the second question because my biggest interest in speaking at this round table is because I wrote an Article in October, a lengthy Article exploring the relationship between the Internet and climate change and specifically how that relates to the Internet Governance community.

Basically I had been very disappointed to learn that the Dynamic Coalition on Internet and climate change, I'm not sure if you know that there is one, it didn't present a report last year, and many of the members indicated that because of the lack of support from the IGF ‑‑ within the IGF of the work that they were doing, we are now ‑‑ I am now a part of it and we're now switching to WSIS Forum where it's perceived that there's more support for it.

Now with that said, I want to focus, sorry if I'm getting off topic, I want to focus on the second part of the question because when we think about the Internet and how it contributes to global carbon footprint or global greenhouse gases, the figure in late 2000s was about the percent of all greenhouse, global carbon emissions, as related to the Internet.  Now thankfully, a study that came out rather earlier this year indicated that as data, let's indicate this.  The cloud is real.  It's not just in the sky.  The cloud is infrastructure.  The cloud is servers.  This takes power to cool.  This takes energy to power.  So one study that came out I think in about September or August found that in the foreseeable future, the more that we connect people to the Internet, the more content is generated, we could be producing most of our energy if not all of it could be going solely to data retention and data services.

So with that said, the time to address this within our community is not tomorrow, it is not yet today, it is yesterday.  So we need to work forget among ‑‑ we need to recognize that this is part of our role.  Rather, that we have a part to play.  Something I mentioned in my Article and I know I'm guilty of this just like everyone else is, the Internet is a global resource, yet at the same time because of that it takes global governance, which is a huge impact on aviation.  And that's a big part of carbon footprint, as well.

So the fact is I really ‑‑ yes, ICTs are contributing to climate change.  Phones, for instance, if we want to connect to new individuals to the Internet, that takes resources to create those phones or those devices.  Where is it coming from?  They're not just made.  They're not made of thin air.  That takes rare earth minerals.  That takes carbons to produce.  This more this happens, the more that it's going to cannibalise on itself.

So we do need to think about how we can use more renewable energy.  But, again, like I said, and I'll fin wish this, Tracy, and I appreciate the lengthy time you've given me for this intervention.  There are many solutions, some of which are coming the private sector, some of which are coming from the energy sector, almost every sector that's related to the Internet and to ICTs, ICTs themselves are used to mitigate both disasters as shown as well as mitigate climate change.

So what we need to do is we need to address this.  We need to see how we can work together.  And we need to recognize that there are very real effects if we do not act immediately.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you, Michael.  I think it's good to point out that this is almost a vicious cycle.  So we're talking about ICTs, climate change, but also the climate change affecting small island states and ISDs can actually mitigate that.  It's a very strange and difficult dilemma.

How do we really, really try to get out of it if we can?  So that we don't have situations in Kiribati or other islands that are in fact sinking in the Caribbean, as well, how do we deal with that situation?  A better?

My colleague Sanlan reminds me that we can probably something using like a Dynamic Coalition to deal with the issue.  Perhaps the only thing we can do is have something on small island developing states where we can sort of continue discussion cross geographics and have climate change as an issue coming out of the regions where it probably affects us the most, in which case it would not die a natural death, it would actually live a good life.  He many, so to speak.  So with that.  I think Sally wanted to say something?  So recognizing respond to the climate change.  I'm seeing a few other hands as well.  Respond the that quickly and then we'll go back.

>> So just very quickly in terms of the potential for Dynamic Coalition on SIDS, on Friday when we have the taking stock session, I'd encourage you to get up and take the mic and ask for a Dynamic Coalition on SIDS.

Also, given the vulnerability of small island developing states, I know one hasn't spoken, but Thailand's sitting there.  And Indonesia who's not here.  Is there anyone from Indonesia here?  In fact, their representative to the UN, Chair of the UN second committee which is in charge of infrastructure.  And so there's a lot of that funding.  And you know our governments have signed up on the Addis Ababa agenda.  So that's one.

But going back to the point that Mike raised.  In terms of advocating, this is very simple, really.  If you look at the mandate for this next 10 years of Internet Governance there's a strong emphasis on Sustainable Development Goals.  Even the first question we talked around the room about the impact on education, like schools shut down.  So in terms of achieving the Sustainable Development Goals, our very vulnerability is a roadblock to addressing the goals.  If we don't address it here, then who will?

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you.  So I recognize ‑‑ Andrew Tonga.

>> Thank you for giving me the opportunity.  Of course those are very important questions.  Especially from us from the island nations.  I don't believe that this topic of climate change is not only caused by one player.  It cause a lot of multistakeholders to cause effects on climate change or also ‑‑ challenge.

Let me just talk about the case in Tonga.  And I think it can relate to your countries.  Personally I work at the ministry in Tonga.  What does MEDECC means?  Ministry of meteorology, energy, disaster management, environment, climate change and communication.

These departments in the government play a major role in what we are discussing today., for example ‑‑ just finished.  He touched on a very important point.  How ICD runs on power and power runs on diesel and diesel produce pollution.

In Tonga, when we discussed these matters, then we look at the solution, okay, we'll look at the solar.  So because the energy department is there, they look at renewable energy.  So we look at solutions where we can decrease the carbon emission as a fact and cost challenges on the climate changes.

When we look at disposal of electronics that also cause challenges on the climate changes, we look at getting an e‑government project where it can minimize the use of servers and also disseminate the information through electronic instead of using paper.

And I think those are the stuff that we are looking at.  And I think the government of Tonga has already put together a strategy where we can put together these man components that can address the issues of the climate change.  And they are all under one roof.  And they discuss these issues and each have to come up with a solution with any issues or any proposals that come from energy or come from ICD, they all look at how it's going to affect the whole country in regards to these issues.  And I think this is just an experience that I'd like to share with you in regards to question number the, thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you.  And Tereza.

>> I always want to check how my name is spelled.  I'm from DiploFoundation.  And I would like to take this opportunity to share with you some of our activities that we have undertaken recently that might be interesting for some of you participating remotely.

As you may be aware, DiploFoundation our main mission is to help small and Developing Countries to participate more efficiently in the global policy processes.  That's how Diplo was born and that's kind of the underlying objective we have in our projects.

>> TEREZA HOREJSOVA:  Two years ago we implemented the project which was called CD Pacific, capacity development project, for Pacific island states in which we tried to increase the capacities of diplomats in the Pacific Islands to come and attend and learn from the multilateral diplomacy happening in Geneva and the Internet Governance and climate change were one of the multiareas we were looking at. 

By the way, some of the alumni of this programme like Maureen are sitting around the table.  We are very happy that a few months ago we were able to secure support for the continuation of this project, making it even bigger.  At this time not only covering the Pacific Islands but also the Caribbean and small countries in Africa.  So we have those two tracks running right now with participants again building their capacities localised to the situation and hot topics in their particular countries.  We haven't forgotten the Pacific Islands because it is an opportunity that is still ongoing.  We currently have travel fund available for representatives of the Pacific Islands to come and attend selected based on their preferences meetings happening in Geneva at the UN.  And we are ready to build a programme around that to really get more contacts and help with quite financially demanding travel to Geneva.  This is a project that is supported by the governments of Switzerland and ‑‑ and I would like to encourage any of you who would like to learn more to either go to the Diplo website or talk to me after the website or at the Diplo booth and we will be happy to tailor the programme to the particular needs of the person in question because this will be individual support.  Thank you, Tracy, for giving me the opportunity.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you.  And I know hands right now because I know Sala had a question.  So it's Maureen first and then any further points?  Sala asked for the last word.  So I want the give her that.  So Maureen, Salin and Sala with the last question, too.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD:  I'd like to follow from Tereza's offer to Pacific Islands which is gratefully received.  Having been a recipient of one of the Diplo fellowships to Geneva, an excellent, excellent opportunity.  And I think, too, that if we can organise something based on the sorts of things that we're talking about today with climate change and disaster risk management.

But I also think, too, just listening to the discussions that we've had about the sort of like all the ideas that are coming through from the different areas of our SIDS, that greater collaboration, we do need to have a coalition.  We do need to have a Dynamic Coalition so that we can actually share and make these more formal, some of these ideas.

What I wanted to raise initially was like within the Cook islands, we have kind of developed a GI portal which is a collection of all the sort of technical information that is available for the people who are ‑‑ whose role it is to help out.  But before they actually put that together, one of the interesting things was that first they looked ‑‑ they did ‑‑ they researched within the outer islands, remembering, too, that the Cook islands, outer islands are very similar to Kiribati and some of the small islands across the Pacific.  Many of them are about 200 meters across.  So when you've got a tiny island on which people live that's only that, you can see one side of the island from the other, it's ‑‑ it makes it very, very much at risk.  See it coming.

And I think that one of the things, people have lived on these islands for generations.  And before they put together their information to help people for their portal, they actually went and spoke to the elders of these islands and looked at the natural technologies, the traditional ways in which they had protected themselves.  And I mean it's one of the reasons why each of our islands, I mean I know that some of them have been real biggies and this have been tragedies, but over the many, many years of cyclones and all those other sorts of things that have happened in the Pacific, very few people have died because they are prepared.  And they're prepared because they've got their own systems.  And what we have e tried to do, in the preparedness, using the technology, is to incorporate some of those traditional ways of things, and insist that they actually continue.  But there are other ways that we can communicate.

Because one of the things that they were saying:  How the you know?  And they were things like the trees, the fruit on the trees flourished more.  Or plants behaved differently.  Birds.  And all those sorts of things.  I mean, they're all important.  We just don't want them to forget.

>> Thank you.  Climate change in Jamaica, everything is everything.  I don't know how they say it in Trinidad but in Jamaica everything is everything and this is very wise.

Climate change is not just disasters.  It's really affecting livelihoods.  Where I live in the south of the DR, Dominican Republic, we used to rely on coffee.  Mountains going down to the sea.  Now, for many years the price of coffee went down, people went to town, it's a very poor area.  We have the lower development indicators in the Dominican Republic in that part.  But now since a few years, the one degree up or half a degree in the coffee is no more producing what it used to produce.  It's already an old plantations and very small plantations, small farmers who don't have capital to invest in technology or in replanting and everything.  And then now we got a new thing, the dust, the roya de cafe.  It's a dust that comes.  Three years we're not producing coffee anymore.  People are cutting the coffee to plant quick, cash crops.  And those basically you cut, you burn, you plant and then the first rain, it's erosion and then it will provoke a disaster.  So we have a disaster in terms of income.  We have a disaster.

So how can ICTs address all that?  It's not a matter of emergency.  It's rural development having a new way of sustainable ag, et cetera.  How do you do that in a community?  It's not ICTs alone.  You need organizations, you need empowerment.  You need farmers associations that have a plan to sell their crops in a way that it gets enough income to rebuild their capacity of survival and all these things.  So it's not just about emergency.  It's about rural development, really.  And then comes how do you work?  Yes, and sustain and, yes, of course.  I remember it's not sexy anymore but telecentres, I mean I was working telecentres 20 years ago, still, for many years.  And we're looking at solutions, if I think about the solutions bringing power and things, how do you empower the community so they own the thing?  Because once the NGO gone or once the government change or once the things tend to fail or stop being used and people take the solar panels or the batteries or whatever and nothing is happening.  So how do you have your everything is everything plan?  And ICTs can play a big role here but it's not about ICTs.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you, Sala, you have the last word on this particular topic.  Or Michael, yes, had a second philosophy.

>> Michael:  I'll be quick.  It's a system.  You're absolutely right.  I want to help close this particular question on a more positive note because please don't translate my, the urgency of this issue or, you know, my perceived concern for it into any kind of helplessness because I want to just read quickly one passage from this Article I wrote. "There are many reasons to be hopeful.  Solutions are manifesting in a variety of ways led by actors across stakeholder groups and many of the solutions specifically seek to discern how the Internet and ICTs can become completely sustainable in the future as well as better addressing ultimately help solve 21st Century challenges.  Of course, that will only happen if we collaborate together." Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Now Sala is the last word.

>> Thank you.  I'm just going the twist it a little bit, if that's okay.  So Tuvalu.  People think the largest for Tuvalu is fisheries.  It is not it is from the lease of dock TV.  But what actually goes to Tuvalu.  Tocalo, small territory, still struggles with funding, and yet in terms of popularity of the domain.tk, it's up with of the most prolific in terms of it rests within the top 10.  I mean, these are practical questions.  Let's talk Internet Governance, as well.

In terms of carbon footprint, we've heard from Mike, we've heard these are real issues.  You want to take access to underserved areas, and access is critical.  There's impact on environmental challenges, in terms of climate change.  And there's no mitigating that.  However, I will say this, countries especially small island developing states as well as the global community, have expressed their commitment that climate change is indeed a pressing issue.  How do we know this?  Very simple.  You got the agenda for sustainable development.  You've got the Paris agreement on climate change.  You've got the Sendai framework for disaster risk reduction 2013‑14.  You got the pathway in which all SIDS leaders attended.  And in the Pacific I know the Caribbean probably has it, as well.  But in the Pacific, I can only spec for our region, we've got the outcome of the ministers meeting in 2015 where this was actually expressly mentioned.

So to answer the question that Tracy put up, I'd say yes.

Now, in terms of resilience, a framework, Yasim talked about the need for a plan.  In the Pacific, just in September this year, leaders all across the Oceana signed the framework for resilient development in the Pacific.  It's an integrated approach to address climate change and disaster risk management.  But in terms of practicality, operationally, we've got the PacNOG, which is all, just like you have the CaribNOG.  And in Asia you've got the southeast Asia NOG and the CNOG and that kind of thing.

For PacNOG, they've got a dedicated working group that's looking to introducing new technologies where or even innovations such as prioritizing pipes, having dedicated pipes just for emergency traffic as Australia's already doing, borrowing from Australia.  Looking into GSM technologies and if you work outside in the GSM, you will see they are giving books out for free.  And I'm sure that when you buy it, it costs a lot of money.  But get it and look at the disaster resiliency advancements that they're making in terms of the technology that's useful for us.  But one of the real problems that I believe that the Pacific still faces, I'm not sure about the Caribbean, but certainly something, the Dynamic Coalition could explore, Tracy, is we've got a problem where we have stuff dumped into the Pacific and sold for premium price where there's no support services provided anymore.  I know this because I used to be group regulatory counsel for Telco.  And I remember negotiating agreements with some of the vendors which I won't name.

But if people don't know how can they negotiate?  So you can have a high level plan.  You can have high level framework.  But talking practicality, so you can look the Dynamic Coalition could potentially look at things like ‑‑ maybe work with people like Diplo, sometimes they're already doing work in it, look at how we could have like an observatory.  Like a one stop shop for best practices, one stop shop for innovation that's accessible all across because you know in the Pacific, this effort, DP actually came up from the Pacific platform.  But believe me when I say this.  In 2013, and this was just disaster response and organizations, when I tried to weave in ICT, it was very hard.  They thought when you say ICT to some community outside of the IGF circles, they think it's "oh, let me fix your computer, update your process," seriously.  Which means we've got to get out of this our community, our cliques and really network and advocate.

You've seen an excellent point.  It's not a one man job, a one organisation job, or one foreign job, it's a multistakeholder job.

And at the end of the day, it's not a ‑‑ I don't think ‑‑ I wouldn't even say it's a responsibility.  I would say it's ‑‑ well, I would say it's humanity.  Because the future, tomorrow's generation, how they actually sustain.  Since Cerf mentioned in day zero that much of what we have, the standards that they are actually discussing, won't be applicable in 20 years to come, 30 years to come, these are serious repository issues, even issues like local content.  With that, I will give it back to Tracy.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  That's okay, Sala.  So I think we've answered a lot of the questions that we tried to answer question 2.  We've also dipped into question 3 already.  So that's great because we only have 10 minutes left.

What I'm going to do is ask my colleague Bevil from Trinidad to just lead us in a wrapup discussion on how the Internet and Internet technologies will lead to the SIDS but linking them to the SDGs, the UN's Sustainable Development Goals.  And give some hope and optimism as to what we can do next, provide some possible solutions.  Bevil?

>> BEVIL WOODING:  Thank you, Tracy.

This question I think we have already gotten into some of the issues surrounding it.

The UN has given 17 development goals or SDGs.  And they resolve around issues of no poverty, no hunger, good health and so on.  And if you think about the concept, the small island developing state standpoint, these are things that we all stand for.  And these are what we want to achieve.  When you think about the Internet and Internet‑based technologies in small island developing states, a lot of the points that were already made come to the fore.  One is the issue of focusing not just on the technical aspects of technology but on the people aspects of technology.  There is no effective technology deployment without first having a set of human relationships in place.  And if you look at the or if you consider the lowest common denominator of what they are seeking to achieve, the thing that we can all rally around and that we are already moving to and one is community empowerment.  And in that regard, I think the small island developing states actually have an advantage.  And the advantage is that it is very easy for us to mobilize communities.  And it is also very easy for us to look across our various communities, whether we're in the Pacific or Caribbean, and find points of common interest and find points of common opportunity.

So an example or a best practice or a learning in one jurisdiction can easily transport itself or transpose itself.  So to me the you with the technology becomes not which specific technical innovation can be applied, but how can we use technology to see each other better?  To see what we're doing, to see how we're doing it, to see where we're doing it, to see what works and what doesn't, so we can quickly or swiftly move toward refinement, solution development and ultimately to what the achievement of the Development Agenda, which brings me to the second point that swirls around the use of technology and small island states.  That is the education component.  And it is related to how we see each other.

Technology can and does open opportunities for education and awareness and so on.  But to me there is an opportunity again for us to redefine how we consider what is education and how do we come to a place of awareness of what opportunities are?

One of the earlier discussions floated around the issue that there is local knowledge have there is wisdom in the elders.  How much of that wisdom is available to our generation that by default searches for it online?

And so when you consider what can be practical for us to do is to make that connection between an existing repository of offline wisdom or knowledge and its transposition into an online world that allows values to be shared, that allows for insights to be understood, that allows for new dialogue to take place that connects one generation to another.

So to kind of wrap up this part of my statement, if we look at technology, if we look at Internet technology and opportunities for small island developing states, what we're really looking at is a way to translate in digital terms the learnings, the opportunities, the interests, the objectives that already exist in the real world into a shareable, collaborative space that allows us to really leverage the best of who we are as small islands.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you for starting that almost final discussion.  So I see Kevin Swift from LACNIC wants to take the floor.  By the way, Glen, can you stay back five minutes?  I want to talk to you after the meeting?  Thanks.  All right.

So, Kevin, go ahead.

>> KEVIN SWIFT:  Thanks, Tracy.  And thanks again for organising this space within the IGF.

I was debating a bit as to when to make this intervention because I wanted to go into LACNIC's experience and I think it just cuts across a number of the issues here.

I won't say we are directly looking at the climate aspects but I will talk about IT commit which was capacity development initiative that we developed in the aftermath of the 2010 earthquake in Haiti.

So what has happened in that, from a client perspective, we are looking at the analytical capacity of the Haitian authorities when it came up with their recovery plan.  We noticed what their gaps were in terms of IT, HR resource.  And as a result, we decide to run programme.  We ran it in 2013 and 2014 in just building capacity for people who worked directly in building and maintaining IT networks within Haiti.  The evolution of this programme, one of the things we noticed is that we always had concerns about sustainability and scalability.  With sustainability and scalability, since we are on the topic of IT and ICT, we felt that we needed to put it towards a direction where what we did needed to be on an online platform and we needed to reach not only the folks who are based in Port‑Au‑Prince and who benefited before from programme but in other parts of the country which are a bit more less favored, particularly the provinces in Haiti and other disfavored categories, such as young women and girls who are looking for economic opportunities.

So the programme is heading a direction now where we are working collaboratively with entities in Haiti.  I think that was one of the major successes we have had over the years.  We are not saying what Haitians should do.  We are actually in partnership with a consortium of three Haitian entities who tell us what the Haitian IT community really needs.

We are doing or changing the capacity effort to now look at the opportunities entrepreneur opportunities and other business support opportunities for disfavored groups.  And we're looking at it at an inclusive, from an inclusive standpoint, not only based at Port‑Au‑Prince but leveraging other initiatives.  There are many initiatives in Haiti, developing straes in the community.  So we're not duplicating, we're really just becoming more spatter about how we collaborate and how we really try to effect change in this scenario.

Before I give up the mic, I wanted to pass it over to my colleague Carlos who also had a general comment about infrastructure and other things that I think were related in the conversation before.

>> Carlos:  Thank you, Kevin.  It's good to see so many familiar faces in this workshop.

I wanted to make a general remark regarding infrastructure.  Some thought, a lot of thought has been put into infrastructure, particularly in the case of small islands which may become disconnected from the wired Internet if the case of a natural disaster.  Actually Bevil has already listened to me say this many times.

I think that IXPs and the whole interconnection within the island, even if it's working perfectly, after a disaster there is some additional thought that has to be put into how these sort of small Internet will work while this disconnection is going on.

One of the things that LACNIC believes that is really important for that not only the IXPs within the island but also the root servers, the idea that you need a root server, a copy of a root server within the island bridge over from all the other in the island so connection can actually be achieved.  It's extremely important.  And actually LACNIC has a programme called ‑‑ in Spanish.  Which we actually try to help different operators to have or to host copies of root servers.  This is I believe an important topic that should be addressed when analyzing the problem of connecting small island states.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Okay.  So all of a sudden we're having I know the time is ended.  There is two requests.  There is remote.  Let's get the remote moderation in.  I beg another minute or two.  And then I'll ask Rhea to wrap up.  I will end my conversation here.  And thank you all for coming.  But let the remote moderation intervention come and I'll ask Rhea is to wrap up.

>> Okay.  People with disabilities have a slogan "nothing about us without us." Perhaps you should adopt that slogan, as well.  That was a question.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  Thank you, in the interest of time, we can't answer the question but I fess the answer is yes.

But I'm going to pass to Rhea for wrapup that might be hard.

>> RHEA YAW CHING:  Do you want me to wrap up number 3?  I'll try to encapsulate because I have one minute.

So essentially discussing around the table the small island developing states in the Caribbean, we essentially feel the same effects, climate change, disaster and so on.  And many examples of where technology is being used in isolated and sometimes collaborative fashions to be able to overcome or mitigate some of the effects of climate change.  But we have recognized that more must be done.  But more must be done in a more cohesive and collaborative way.  And there is also a significant sense of urgency in order to mitigate some of the present effects.  And of course some of the future effects that are not so future in some of our present cases.

And if I draw on some of the points made at the end, what it's really coming down to is understanding that we are more similar than we are dissimilar in our, if the effects.  And we are more similar than dissimilar in the adoption, evolution pathway of technology in our regimes, in our politics, in our populations.  And one of the key components that also came out was:  This is not simply about technology.  And that we must be able to incorporate many of the institutional, inherent and traditional and cultural practices into the management and mitigation of climate change and disaster management as we go forward with this.  And that there is a real need to be able to find a formal mechanism for SIDS to be able to collectively share collective experiences and information and collaborate to be able to find appropriate solutions that are scalable cross countries, cross communities in a very expedited fashion even though as it was said there are other fora that are trying to manage this on a global scale.  But understanding that we do have to walk and run at the same time.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW:  So thank you very much.  We are on island time.  Thanks again.  Bye‑bye.



(end of session)