The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Eleventh Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Jalisco, Mexico, from 5 to 9 December 2016. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 


>> MODERATOR:  Good afternoon.  Thanks for everyone to be here, we are convening here to talk about IoT for sustainable growth please try to make very beautiful faces because we got broadcast of this session, so we will be on TV.  And I want you very happy and more than that very collaborative and I hope your participation can be good and great because we need your contributions.

The idea of this workshop is to talk about the IoT for sustainable growth not because we don't want to talk about any other perspective, but if you had the opportunity to attend the three previous sessions on IoT Belisario those talked about infrastructure on IoT and options on the interoperability has been already taken on this previous session.

So our idea now is to talk about on the business perspective, but what would you like to see here today is how the IoT can provide and generate wealth for everyone.  So how can we deploy Internet of Things, systems, devices or even websites and get some benefits from that, but not giving back our back to the wealthy for everyone, not to giving back for the rest of things like privacy and security and the other things that I have mentioned before.

We proposed as you may have seen in the short lines of this workshop to make some questions or to get some answers for some questions like how to move from concept to reality, how to make this solution viablely, economically, how to bring sensitive things in return to the citizen, and also we wanted to ask if the IoT improved in a way that the private or the public sector can generate savings.  We wanted to discuss about Internet of Things without giving back to the sustainable millennium goals.

We have six speakers confirmed.  Here we have five of them and one is, will be with us in remote participation.  My task is not to talk a lot, but giving to you all, especially for the invited speakers, to give them contributions so I would like to start with a remote contribution and for that I would invite Shadik  Oobazraa WC3 organisation and he is in Vienna, Austria right now.  Shadik, can you hear us.

>> AUDIENCE:  Hello, good evening from Vienna.  My apologies I don't have a camera.  It's late in the evening.  Warm welcome and unfortunately I could not be with you today.  It's an important topic, Internet of Things, and in WTC, worldwide consortium, we are looking at what we call the Web of things, which is the interface, the interoperability of those connected devices and sensors and using the web platform as that mechanism to actually have those systems, these oak could systems (Shadi Abou‑Zahra) be able to talk to each other, and my specific area in WTC is to work on accessibility for people with disabilities.

And in relevance of the millennium goals and in insuring sustainability, we must make sure that the Internet of Things provides the same access and value to people with disabilities.  In fact the Internet of Things has potential to further enhance accessibility to people with disabilities.  For example, consider Smart homes.  For many years those have been specially built devices for people with physical disabilities to be able to switch on light bulbs and open doors and so on, and now go to any store and buy those things off the shelf and plug it in and we are seeing more of that, things like self‑driving cars, what would be an opportunity for people with disabilities.

But only if these things are in fact accessible, if you cannot actually identify as a blind person which one is your car that just drove up, then you have trouble using this potential.  And so these are the things that we want to look at or that we are looking at WTC.  One is having the Web as an enabler for interoperability which I think is the number one or one of the main issues in the Internet of Things, we have those different systems that have trouble talking.  We are seeing already many sensors and many devices that already speak HTTP and can convey data on the Web platform.

And in the context of that is how we would address all of the aspects of privacy and security and accessibility, what we call horizontal activities at WTC and I will stop there because I know we are short on time.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much Shadi.  And now I give the floor to Thales Marcal from the Minister of Science and information and communication technologies.

>> THALES MARCAL:  Innovation.  Hello, I'm sorry, I don't speak English very good, so I made a speech and I read it for you.  Firstly, I would like to thank the opportunity to rep the Ministry of Science, technology, innovation and communication of Brazil at an event as import as the IGF in Guadalajara.  2014 the ministry began the work in various sectors of the Brazilian IoT infrastructure to the development and implementation of the benefits generated by the IoT systems.  For this new sector group was given the name of the Chamber of IoT.

The Brazilian Chamber of IoT has represented activities of other federal Government agencies, the ministries, the regulatory agencies, the public companies.  Representatives of the municipalities, the academy, universities and research institutes, business associations, the hardware and software industry, and the support organisations for development of Brazil.  In this direction, the ministry team along with CGI Brazil and ECD proposed this to the desire to leverage IoT for its implementation based on sustainability.  In our IoT readings, we identify that persons with applications such as Smart home and wearables should be in use as soon as consumers realize the cost benefit ratio is favorable including in malt ors related to privacy and security of information.

However, applications are not only based in this cost benefit ratio.  And, therefore, are more difficult to implement.  The decisions to apply public measures (Indiscernible) should take into account the economy generated by the investment of these public expenditures and the return of the perception of improvement of social welfare by the population.

The measures are used to identify the perception of the decisions taken their popularity and their votes that will be given on them in the next election.  As for technologies, I believe that engineers are very well prepared to implement the Internet of Things.  Technical issues will arise and some there will be solutions to this case.  Therefore, I believe that the implementations of the Internet of Things will depend on the development of the good business plan.

The plans should respond on the expectations of the municipal decision makers, for example.  The decision makers for the companies, and the population affected by the applications.  Finally, I would like to inform you the MACIT is partnership with the national bank for economic and social development, the BNDS from Brazil will as seen next Monday, December 12, a technical cooperation for implementing the Internet of Things in Brazil.  In addition a public consultation will be launched that will assist in the Brazilian strategy for this sector.

For this the BNDS hired a consortium of consultants to personalize the Brazil case.  From the public consultations and the study of the Brazilian case, we hope that many of the dots on the highlighted on the sustainable development will be answered.  Sorry for the mispronunciation of some words.  Thank you so much.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you, now, I give the floor to Maria.

>> MARCIA OGAWA MATSUBAYASHI:  My name is Marva Ogawa, I am the lead party ner for telecommunications media and technology for Deloit Brazil.  Think you so much for inviting me for this honorable discussion, and lot me give you a brief background.  For the last two or three years I have been one of the enthusiasts of IoT in Brazil, and I was one of the leaders in the globe in order to promote IoT and my mission is to help the Brazilian Government, the Brazilian companies and the Brazilian society to embrace this new economic paradigm.  I would say that is economic paradigm because I strongly believe that IoT will change significantly, how the companies are organized.

And as Mr. Thales told that Brazil had just launched national IoT plan, and I strongly believe that it will be a fundamental initiative to guide our country to face the new economic cycle.  I'm sure the next generations of Brazilians will be proud of the key and both decisions taken today.  So the idea here is to explain how to, we can use IoT to build a sustainable society.  Brazil has several challenges.  One challenge is economic that we are facing a huge economic situation, and secondly Brazil is a very diverse society.

So we have a country like different countries below, under the same ceiling.  And so it's very hard to build a national IoT plan.  So my idea is that we needed to segment the country first by regions and I would say not geographic regions, but a combination, user combination of economic vocation, quality of labor force, quality of telecommunication infrastructure, and attractiveness of companies and especially external investments.

And each region should drive a business plan.  Also I have seen several attempts to segment the country by industry verticals and I'm pretty sure that industry verticals will change significantly due to the new digital society.  So linear supply chains does not exist anymore.  Technologies and new customer behavior have changed significantly how the companies are organized.

So in our experience, there are eight pillars to be developed, that need to be considered for a good business plan for the country.  First, strategy and vision.  The country or the renal on or the city.  Strategy and vision, we need to have a clear vision of what we want to be achieved and a strategy to realize this ambition.  And this strategy needs to address the three pillars of sustainability, economic, social, and environmental.

Secondly, we need to take care of this attractiveness, and usually the Latin American countries have been so closed, but we need to attract external investments.  We need to attract external collaboration.  Third, private and public ecosystem.  Several persons ask me if it is more in public or more in the private, but I would say in a combination of both.  The Government needs to play a strong role in helping to find opportunities in the country and help gather the parties or build the local ecosystems.

Openness, communication and technology.  I would say that broadband is a prerequisite and in Brazil we have a national Brad band national plan which will be very important to make all of this happen.  And sixth, data.  It's also important to have not only the collections of silos of datas, but a combination of how we can use and extract the different data from different projects.  And also seven, it will be project and solutions.  I have seen so many initiatives that I isolated, that does not communicate each other, and we do need to have those projects and programs that need to end up in a big, in a big opportunity that really create value to the region or to the city.

And eighth, there are skews in competences.  Everybody says that the IoT requires new skews.  I definitely agree.  And lastly, I would like to touch the impacts of technology and unemployment.  For sure, the application of technology could provoke the decrease of jobs in specific areas, but in my opinion we Latin Americans cannot fear of that impact.  We need to put our efforts in building new society, requiring a label for us in creating new types of jobs.

We cannot delay input barriers in adopting new technologies.  These actions will deepen the abscess between countries and the developed world.  The worst thing that could happen in our country is to demotivate the talents and provoke a brain drain.  Let the talents in open younged mind people absorb the new technologies.  They are the ones to build a more inclusive and open society.  And here IoT plays an important role.  Thank you so much.


>> MODERATOR:  Thank you, Marcia.  And now I give the floor to Pedro Malo.

>> PEDRO MALO:  So good afternoon, I'm Pedro from Portugal.  I'm a professor at University of Lisbon and I'm also a researcher on IoT and I'm also an entrepreneur in IoT, so I have a company that is developing IoT technology.  So I bring about the views, the multiple views from academy, from research, and also from business.  I have here a set of points that I prepared.  I'm trying to go through them, and I think that for starters, looking at IoT, I think IoT is a reality right now we are surrounded by IoT.  I have actually an IoT on my wrist.

It gives my heartbeat and it is also an accelerometer, it has a gyroscope, it has data.  This data can be communicated to the Web or to my Smart Phone which is the way that it communicates, this is Apple Watch 1 so second already talks with it directly.  And all of your mobile phones actually are IoT devices.  They have multiple sensors microphones, accelerometers, cameras and they communicate to the Web.  So just to say that the IoT in this room is already quite high and the more we evolve, the more IoT we will see in our lines.

And I think I have also an IoT, nice IoT system here because I'm talking and that thing there is translating my speech directly to text.  I am actually trying to chase that system to see if it manages to do what it's supposed to do, but I don't know how it works, but I presume that basically I speak here, it goes to the Web somewhere to a server around or maybe on the Web, and it's getting the data.  And so it's also kind of an IoT application right here.

So we are surrounded by IoT in this room.  Talking about IoT and I think I will give you a view of Europe because I am European and port too gees so bring about also the view of Europe, we have starting this year a very ambitious plan on IoT.  We call it the thriving IoT ecosystem built around three big pillars.  The first pillar is about open platforms, open solutions.  It's one of the important things that we push about in Europe is about open technologies.

The second one is looking at the priority markets where Europe is strong, especially we are talking about industry, also agriculture, autonomous cars so several of the domains, the markets where we are strong, and so we are pushing also a lot on that, and the third one, the third very important pillar is human centred IoT.  So we are looking about an IoT that accounts for people that doesn't create another digital divide, and that is, let's say, private, secure and trusted, and trusted is the key word.  The trusted IoT is what we are trying to build on.

How are we doing about this?  So the commission has funded, the European Commission has funded 100 million Euros in the program for an IoT pilot, a set of IoT pilots which is one of the ways, one of the solutions to solve the problem of going from concept to reality is to prove technologies first to see if they work, to see what are the things that it works better, what are the things that doesn't work so well, so we are doing IoT pilots with substantial amount of money, European wide on domains such as smart agriculture and food security on autonomous cars on aging well, on Smart cities and on wearables.  So we are doing five big pilots, total budget on that is 100 million Euro for doing that.

Another thing that we are also doing and funding is experimental infrastructures.  So spaces, areas in cities, in buildings, in environments where we can experiment with the technology first before going to the market.  So there is quite a vast investment in these technologies and even we created a smart city which is Santander.  So that's mother way to go to the market and to experiment with people, real people leaving the lab before, of course, going to the mass market.

So experimental infrastructures.  So trying now to talk a bit about the questions that have been posed basically the first one is about the stakeholders and my problem with the stakeholders is exactly who pays for the Internet of Things, and this is the big issue.  The IoT, it depends on what IoT we are talking but if we are talking about Smart cities they might be needing big infrastructure for collecting data, for getting data somewhere, for them being able to reason on the data, and who pays for this?

So this is one of the big problems of the IoT today is I think the business model is clear.  I think the value is very clear.  The problem is is there the money to pay for it?  And it's not so clear that the money is there.  Because what I see in the funding is that most of the funding that is coming about, it needs to come from state, and from people, from citizens, and citizens are a bit worried about paying a new infrastructure that the value is not so clear for them.

So this is one of the big problems.  The other problem is how to monetize the IoT.  So how can we get the money out of the Internet of Things and how do we make sure that the taxes that this money will generate will stay in the countries?  Because it will be very easy to move the Internet of Things monetization to off shore or even for a low tax country and then we are getting another level of a problem.  And these problems we need to address in the, in this domain.

But there are solutions, and so talking about arrangements for stakeholders that can work.  For instance, I will give you an example of what we are doing in Portugal, in Almada which we are creating a very Smart infrastructure for IoT data collection where we are using the water towers.  We installed routers on top of towers, and it allows IoT communication for collecting data.  And because they are the most highest point in the city, it's very easy to install a few of them and to cover, do a very big coverage in the city.

So with a small smartness of doing things, you can install nice infrastructure and expect things to happen.  About employment.  Of course, that IoT will create every digital revolution that has come about in the world as made problems in terms of employment and that people have lost jobs because jobs disappeared, but new jobs have appeared.  So I think the IoT will create new jobs, it will create new economics, new business and I think that we should not at least be so worried about that.

We need to consider them.  We need to address them, but I think we need to consider that as something that will happen as any other digital revolution.  My view is talking about policy, I'm not a politician, but I think that systems like flex security as you have seen it in Denmark in the 90's worked very well because you can do both things.  You can have a very accelerated economic growth and technological base but then you have a security system that is paid also by the employees in order to anyone that loses a job can get back in the system in different ways and can get training to get back in the system.  This is very important things to do.

But the way I see it, countries only change fundamental things when they are in crisis like Portugal was in the last at least ten years time and fundamental things only change in survival mode.  So I think it's very difficult for things to change in the future in this respect.  In terms of regulation, okay, regulation sometimes the best regulation is not to do anything, is to stay put and let the market work and see what happens and this is one of the ways to, for states to operate.  But there are other things that can do, for instance, talking about Brazil that we know so well, there are problems with communications in Brazil and there is a lot of cost in the communications in Brazil, and so there is something that needs to be solved in the communication domains for IoT to develop.  In the European Union there is roaming between states, between countries in European Union and by July 2017 roaming will disappear.  So roaming is one of the limitations that is also hampering IoT applications like any other applications, Internet applications.

So these things need to disappear, these let's say things that are creating still frontiers in the system, and maybe in that also things that can move on.  Privacy and security, just a few words on that.  Of course, privacy and security is an issue.  All of the others have talked about that at workshops.  Very clear it has happened at the cyber attack on the 21st of October, 2016 was an attack of the IoT on the Internet, and this is, it was really an attack of the IoT on the Internet, so it means that for sure in the future we will see the IoT disrupting and attacking the Internet much more because it's easier to enter on IoT devices, the security measures are less developed and there are many manufacturers doing stuff so it's much more difficult to have a good security schemes on the IoT, and how do we go about that?  Well, in Europe that is what we are trying to do with this IoT trusted label, which is to create kind of a label where you put the mark then on your device and you say my device it has passed a series of certifications, a series of mechanisms, it has pass the even some tests that needs to be done, and, okay, it's trusted, secure, and it works.

And this is very similar like, for instance, if you know Apple MFI, which is made for iPhone, imad or whatever it is ‑‑ iPad, whatever it's called.  It is a program like that so if you want to have a device to talk with the Apple devices ecosystem, you need to pass to that certification scheme, and that certification steam insures that security is addressed.

And finally, just open data.  I'm a bit skeptical about open data because at least it's me, public open data and even more private open data because, okay, we can put the data out there, but it's not so clear what people can do about it, and I think here we have to do a bit of a leap of faith, and the idea would be let's put the data out there.  Let's create the data.  Let's put it out there in the sense that we need to do it even for transparency.  We need to do it even for openness.  We need to do it anyway, and we should do it anyway and let's see what people do with it.

Every time we put something out there and do something into the system, people marvel at us with nice things that we didn't think at start, and I think sometimes you need to do these things.  You put things there and see what happens.  This is my points of contribution.


>> MODERATOR:  Thank you, Pedro.  Very good contribution.  And now I would like to invite to speak Sam Paltridge from OECD.

>> SAM PALTRIDGE:  Thank you, Chair.  Well, I'm bringing up the preparation which was loaded on the laptop.  My name is Sam Paltridge from the OECD.  So my presentation follows nicely from Pedro's is that the Internet is all around us so I have a different way of showing that.  You can have fun on this website if you like, you can see turtles being tracked, you can see environmental monitoring devices.  I have just zoomed in there on Guadalajara.

This is kind of the public Internet of Things.  That's why it's accessible, and that's why you can see that it is indeed all around us.  Now, Internet of Things as Pedro said is an enormous number of devices being connected to the Internet.  I like to track this by looking at those that use IP addresses.  Of course, there are different definitions of the Internet of Things and I'm always amazed when I see IP addresses on devices.

The thing about the Internet of Things though is that we still don't know what the demand of the different aspects of Internet of Things will be.  Do you need your washing machine connected to the Internet of Things?  I'm not sure I do, but it's certainly possible.  So about five years ago, we played a game at the OECD where we sat around and thought in five years' time how many devices would be connected to the Internet, and it's easy to start to run up very large numbers.

We just looked at a family of four and what, you know, back then we thought people might be connecting to the Internet.  Today there is obviously a lot more devices that can be connected.  I'm going to concentrate on one aspect today which is transport because I want to look at sustainability.  The transport that's all around us is connected to the Internet in ways that you probably realize if you hire a bike in Paris, if you catch a bus in London, you will see the bus stop is connected to the Internet.  Again, you are seeing IP addresses there that's booting up or a tram in The Hague, you can see the IP address at the top there.

Actually there is a number of IP addresses along the side of the tram you might be able to see in yellow color.  I'm collecting them.  I do ask permission.  I have put a list of items there, Pedro has discussed some of them.  I haven't got time in the seven minutes I have to go through some of these so I will just pick on traffic.

Now, those of you that have been coming to this event for a while or have a longer history with the Internet will always have heard about data tsunamis, how something new is going to happen that was going to overwhelm the Internet, and quite frankly I have been very skeptical about that because the technology is basically evolved and in many ways run ahead of the demand.

Today with transport, I'm not quite so sure about that and I want to talk about it for the few minutes I have and perhaps stimulate some questions from you.  Think about Internet traffic if you look at a lot of the debates, the popsy, the regulatory ‑‑ policy, regulatory debates they are around services that generate a lot of traffic.  Just, for example, I have used sand vine's traffic there, they monitor a group of individuals see what their traffic is.  You can see many familiar names there in North America, the downloads traffic sites like Netflix.

You can also see uploads there, and you can see what people are sending.  It may surprise some people to know you are actually sending a lot of traffic when you download Netflix because they are monitoring the system.  But downloads overwhelmingly dominates traffic and most people think about downloads because you are perhaps in a home that sand vine is supplied to you might download seven or eight times more traffic than you send.  So I want you to keep that in mind.

We are connecting more things all of the time to the Internet, and one of the things is through machine to machine.  So a car will have two SIM cards, one for telemetry, one for entertainment and we are tracking this so we collect the number of SIM cards.  It's steadily increasing but companies like AT&T today sell more SIM cards for cars than they do for people.

If you look at the traffic of connected cars, it's actually not that much today.  So the average connected car sends about well, a quarter what you use just having a Smart Phone.  So that kind of traffic is very manageable.  And I have put the example there of Chevy.  Then I break it down, but you can do your estimates, just go by the number of cars that are connecting and the amount of traffic each month.  It's very manageable.

It's nothing that can't be handled by today's technology, but if you have seen some of the recent presentations by Intel, Intel CEO is basically saying that a driverless car will be generating the same amount of traffic as about 3,000 Smart phone users.

Now, today's technology is a long way off being able to handle something like that.  So remember that I said about downloading more data an you are sending ‑‑ than you are sending.  We don't know about driverless cars.  We don't know the demands they will place on network.  We don't know what that will mean for infrastructure.  But clearly, they are going to generate a lot of data.

And so that leads to just some questions that I'm going to put up there as I finish.  How much of that needs to be in real time?  We don't really know that.  We think that some of it will be downloaded when the car is in the garage.  But if you are talking about a lot of the applications that people have for the driverless cars, obviously a lot of it might be car to car of a short range and so forth.  But other data will be useful to people that are further down the highway to tell them that there is ice on the road, that there has been an accident, whatever information that driverless cars need to function in an efficient way, we really don't know what that's going to do in terms of generating traffic and how much that needs to be transmitted in real time.  That's a real question that I think is out there, and for sustainability, which is why I chose this subject, I think that's an open question.

Clearly in the next few years we are going to have 5G.  We haven't got a standard yet, but we are going in that direction.  That's going to be able to handle a lot more data.  It's going to have all sorts of implications with smaller cells and so forth.  There is going to be enormous challenges, even what people are talking about with 5G couldn't handle the amounts of traffic people are talking about with driverless cars, but how are we going to back haul that traffic?

We are going to need Internet exchange points.  What is going to happen with peering and transit.  It's going to be an enormous amount of data exchanged between different players and then, of course, we can end with questions about Net Neutrality and traffic prioritization.  Pedro mentioned who is going to pay for this.  So the pricing is going to be very interesting.  Is it going to be sponsored?  You know, when you buy your car, are you going to buy the access with that?  Is it going to be some other model?  Are people going to introduce congestion pricing in the same way we have congestion pricing for cars?  Who knows?

This is just an enormous amount of questions that are out there in terms of the sustainability, but I just raise them as questions.


>> MODERATOR:  Thank very much, Sam, for your contribution and the last speaker I invite Serge Mvongo.

>> SERGE MVONGO:  Sorry again for being late.  I underestimated the traffic in Guadalajara.  That's a good segue.  I represent Qualcomm.  Qualcomm is a tech company, we essentially, if you own a Smart Phone today, we are in there somehow, we are either providing computing or doing connectivity.  So we are very much at the forefront of looking at the IoT and how we bring technology and some of the changes we are thinking in terms of 5G or be able to today if you have a cellular device, data services technology to be able to do that a little bitter.

Qualcomm a few years back started looking at the space and we understand that IoT is not only things.  It's who uses it, who benefits from it.  And if you think about it a little bit in those senses, you will understand that there are probably about three categories.  There is IoT for the consumer, so Alexa, Siri, your washing machine.  There is IoT for enterprise, so if you are a water meter or an electric company or a large facility, what kinds of technologies you want to bring out there.

And then the last piece really, and it's a big piece affects a lot of people are cities and Government.  So how does a city go about things?  So one thing we then determine is we had to look at first the economics from a, an economic standpoint, what role does the private sector have to play?  And how do we define the sales cycle in IoT?  So if I'm selling to an end consumer obviously I'm going to have some problems with end distributors, but if you are putting a solution for cities and Government, it had to really be a common approach with city folks, regulators, and also some of the providers.

So we actually broke down the company that way and we are looking at IoT and making sure that we are looking at that as such.  I'll say that from a positioning standpoint, what we looked at it, we start, but one thing that is common, you will need connectivity, but what kind of connectivity depends on the use case.  So in a sense if I'm connecting a car it's not the same as being in a factory automation building.

So whatever solution is provided has to really meet the use case being resolved.  So I can't just say it's all cellular.  I have to say city Government facilities decision maker, please ask your vendor is this the best technical solution for my problem is really the first case.  And then the second piece in cities and sustainability, it's really probability and standards.  If you think about your traditional city, you have different departments, water, electric, transport.

If by the end you have done implementing your solution, those separate units do not talk to each other.  You have a fantastic transport system but your water and electric system may be bringing down the system.  So the city doesn't really have the economic benefits of all of that integration.  So and I think I won't say open data.  There is a lot about it, but it's good to have the data available such that maybe for a city, citizens that are fixing the problem can develop applications on top that the city can use in the long term, and at that point it's just a matter of how do we put that together.

A good example we have today in this kind of world where you have Government, city, private sector is in New York City where, you know, the city was really feeling the pain of their pay phones.  In New York you pay 25 cents, you make a coal call and citizens started complaining it's ugly and nobody uses it so the city felt like there was a benefit there, and one thing they did, they had an RFP that said, hey, we would like the private sector and folks to propose a solution to us, such that first of all the key benefit would be that we would like to provide Internet access for every single citizen in New York by this time free of charge.

There is a charge to the city.  There is no tax raised.  So at that point it becomes a challenge to folks that are trying to apply to figure out how am I going to make money?  How is the city going to be able to make money?  And then the next step is do you have the right partners?  If I want to have this economics in New York or in Guadalajara, am I working with somebody who understands the people in Guadalajara?  In terms of selling content, so we set up a consortium.  We took a couple of local advertising firms and content firms in New York.  And I will transit into employment.

This was also an example for employment generation within the city because the city mandated that any new manufacturing be done within the City of New York.  So they can only hire there and they can only hire (Indiscernible).  And also, this is public, it's out there, the city will get revenue out of this over the next 10, 12 years so they are getting revenue because the revenue model is obvious in advertisement.  New York you can do that, you can sell ads, but maybe in other places in the world you can do other things.  I am from Cameroon, there is a phone there, I'm sure there are people that like to make phone calls and those kinds of things so it's a local problem for cities.

Now, enterprises are looking at it more in efficiency.  Let's suppose you manage ten buildings and you can find a way to use IoT to increase productivity of your employees.  You cannot foresee no ROI out of that.  And we did a good commercial example in San Diego, we went to our own facilities team where they know that the largest bill was electricity.  So they had to figure out a way to reduce that.  We used some sensors plugged into their network and they were able to show some returns right now.

So the point I'm trying to make is that it's not about just a single use case.  It's really, you have to break it down to the different use cases.  And I have touched on security and privacy.  A lot of times when we talk about security, we think about the Internet piece, but what we really after talking to different vendors, we want to make sure that vendors understand that before the data reaches your data centre or the Internet, it goes to the sensors, so it's important for them to ask what kind of security policies are on the edge, and I did global type standards or are they private network?  Because if it's private network, typically it's not as robust as standards that 20, 40 countries have agreed to.

So that's one piece.  Privacy in the country is about what is your regulation and what your people can accept in New York it was very clear that they told us, hey, no cameras.  New Yorkers don't want cameras.  So you are going to have to respect that.  If not, you are going to get backlash from the people you are trying to serve.  So it's really about trying to find out with regulation, with global understanding, but a local presence on how you actually deal with privacy.

And I think the last one has to do with network and that kind of stuff.  We think that, you know, 2020 you are going to think about not sending all of the data over the big barriers.  There will be potentially private networks where I have my private telecommunication network where it doesn't go over, you know, bell south or AT&T or whatever.  And that may make sense for a security company because they want to have that type of thing.  So it's a matter of what the use case is.  I will stop there and maybe take some questions.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you for your contribution, so of course there are enormous questions to be responded to what it's going to be.  It's not going to be easy.  Just wrapping up what we heard and call my attention is that everybody or almost everybody spoke about the human beings to be the centre of the IoT using different words, they said multistakeholder ecosystem, the human centred IoT, who is going to be the interface with human beings in IoT?

So everybody is concerned about the presence of human beings as a real actor in IoT ecosystem.  The other thing that caught my attention was about some of you talking about the data, and how important is data for the Internet of Things as a value, as important content for the Internet of Things work out.

So it also says the importance of open data and also the open platform.  And the other thing, the last one that caught my attention is that at least two or three in this panel mentioned the importance of pilot projects or some projects that can show how IoT can benefit people.  And Serge mentioned we have to focus on IoT for consumer, IoT for enterprise, IoT for city and Government and maybe different groups have different approach and the IoT has not to be the same for everyone.

So now, I open the floor for everyone, and I would like to hear from you, your questions, your comments about the main topic, please.  Feel free, if you can raise your hand.

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Edmon Chung with DOT.Asia.  I find out three speakers conserving on a few things as you have summarized in terms of open data, tsunami of data and different cases where data converges and I wanted to respond to the last comment.  Actually that's very interesting for me is that while we think that all of this data is going to create a lot of traffic, but if we look back at how videos, for example, on the Internet eventually worked out we had content delivery networks that kind of pushes the traffic back to the edge, and I think what was mentioned about how private networks or the networks not necessarily depending on the, I guess the GSM network, that's going to happen especially for, probably for the consumer and for the enterprise as well.

And that, and that relates a lot to what we mean by open data.  I think, you know, open data really is much more towards the IoT for city where the transparency is important, where, you know, the interpretation of that data, I guess, the reason for the transparency is the interpretation of the data could be checked by multiple parties not just by whoever has the exclusive access to that data and that's probably important.

So whether the traffic stays on net or I guess quasi off net what we are calling off net might be private networks or something like the content delivery networks that stays more in the local area than fully global because ultimately data doesn't have, not all of the data needs to pass through the global network all of the time, and that is the, I think we are moving into that type of ‑‑ we at least we should be moving into that area, that direction, and, well, actually ourselves, we are experimenting with some pilot about how that data can be kept back in Hong Kong and also at our organisation we are doing pilots about how that data can be kept within local area networks or private networks and then shared selectively to the open network and how that model can be.

So I think that's ‑‑ I like the idea that was presented at the last point, and I think that really needs to be a direction that we explore further.

>> MODERATOR:  Okay.

>> AUDIENCE:  Hlenai with Learn Asia.  I am working in Southeast Asia.  So along the things like quality and capacity of networks, another problem is capacity of human beings.  So somebody was talking about open data and it seems Government centric the approach and the speakers.  Many my part of the world the indicate data for the IoT are the mobile phones as one of the people said and we work with call detail records and VLRs in the future it to not do telecom stuff but to identify, answer questions related to SDGs, involve city mapping, where do poor people life, how much do they earn, transport planning, where do they come from, and where do go to work?  How is the nature of the city from commercial to residential and back to commercial.  All of these things are answerable primarily through private sector data that lies with the telecom operators which is difficult to access even for our Governments but that has to be combined with Government data from the national census offices.  These are completely divergent entities and we are a completely third party outside the not for profit sector who happened to have the capacity to do this kind of analysis.

All of these three things need to come together, the assumption that our Government certainly in my part of the world will have the finances wherewithal of the capacity to set up central initiatives of the type you were talking about I think it not realistic so we need to talk about how different sectors come together and use this data.

>> AUDIENCE:  I'm Ina Annette from Portugal.  I would like to raise a basic question.  I don't want to talk about the business model because there are several business models like, that but I think you understood that I wanted to ask something very basic.  It's not about the business model, but about the possibility to have Internet everywhere anytime.  I mean, Internet of Things, it has a potential, it's enormous potential of leapfrogs any time, but I think that you have a limitation because you don't have Internet everywhere.

And the point that we have the sensors, we have the collection of data, we have data to be processed later on I think it limits potential of Internet of Things.  I would like to know from panelists about this because I think there is something missing here is Internet everywhere any time.  Thank you.

>> SERGE MVONGO:  That's a very good question.  That's a question that comes up quite a bit.  Unfortunately the reality is that it's not free.  So the Internet doesn't have (Indiscernible) so there has to be somebody that gets the infrastructure in whether it's a Google sending their stuff, their satellites up, but the end result is if I give you free Internet, are you willing for me to look at, I get the data that I get from it.

So those kind of privacy discussions where I can use the data.  You have Internet for free, but I use data to potentially sell businesses, so it's a good question but we have to keep that in mind, and second of all from a Government standpoint, you can think about cities doing a few different things, New York did it for them because the economics work.  It will be free by 2020, you go in there and you log in, but somebody had to pay for it, and there has to be economics behind it that's just reality.  

>> AUDIENCE:  I think first his questions in terms of the edge computing, so I think it's very important to design the perfect architecture because what you mentioned is that more and more computation could be in an Internet of Things world.  So it's heavily dependent on the way you design this architecture and definitely we do not need anymore to upload everything on the net.  Because you can solve several, you can put smart analytics in the edge.  So robotics in the edge.  Those are the things that will come up very soon.

So concerning to the Internet of everywhere, I think we need to build the connections where it makes sense.  As he said, it costs, somebody has to pay.  So that's the reason that we need to come up from the business model and really identify what makes sense to be connected.

>> AUDIENCE:  I agree, I didn't mention that because I didn't want to waste a lot of time, but the approach of edge computing and full computing it's one of the ways to solve the data tsunami, and we are already experimenting with that.  In Europe we have a lot of trials doing edge computing even in production environments and manufacturing to know not only to do the, let's say the data stay in the edge of the application domain, but also to do local analytics and to learn locally and even to synchronize edge, several edges to have, let's say, local view between some domains and you are able to reason with partial information.  Of course, this will happen, I think I just, it's, this is very clear.  We from an engineering point of view, we will solve the problem.  I think it will be difficult because we don't know how much data is coming about with the cars, but at the end, we will solve the problem.

We have solved the problem every time.  So even if we develop new ways of doing it, if we put edge computing, I don't really see that the problem is technical.  We always solve the problem technically.  We always, always, always solve the problem because we are smart people, right, we solve problems.  Right.  Globally we are smart people, we solve engineering problems.

The other is more difficult, political problems and other problems are more difficult to solve because we are not so able to do that.  About the question of ‑‑ actually I don't think we do, because I think Internet we will have Internet everywhere, and the more we go, the more Internet we will have every time everywhere every place.  And if we see in Europe maybe in other places not so clear, but in Europe, every place that we go, we have Internet.

Some places we don't have Internet, but, okay.  It's few places.  I think the tendency will be to have Internet all over the place, mobile Internet all of the time.  And this, we have to think about this if it's a problem or not.  But even in places where we don't have Internet, it's no problem because we can have data being generated and I go there with the data mule that passes with the data stuff and brings the data back to let's say the Internet or even I think that when you are talking about Internet of Things at least my perspective, the data and the things doesn't need to be connected to the Internet.  It needs to use Internet technology.

So if you have a domain using Internet technologies but it is not connected to the Internet, for me it's Internet of Things.  So it means that I don't need to have Internet access even to have an Internet of Things.  So at the end, I think this will happen every place, everywhere respectively if we have Internet or not, but we will have Internet everywhere.  Everywhere we will have Internet.  I don't know if you agree with me but the tendency will be to have Internet.  I see the future in 50 years time in the future where we pay for a infrastructure which is a worldwide infrastructure.  We pay a little bit and I have access everywhere.

We already are starting to have that in Europe.  In July 2017 all of Europe will have Internet.  We go everywhere and we pay a bit for our part.  I pay in Portugal, but I have access in all of Europe, and I think that when we go to the U.S., and we go to Brazil or to the South America or Mexico and at the end we will pay a bit for a global infrastructure that will connect everywhere where we are.  At least that's my vision of the future.

>> AUDIENCE:  And when you mention everywhere, you mention, I thought you were mentioning Internet in every onto where you are talking about everywhere in places.  Okay.

>> AUDIENCE:  For me it's not good enough to have the collection of data, and then waiting for ‑‑

>> AUDIENCE:  In this case I agree with you, I thought that your question was everywhere in terms of every object.

>> MODERATOR:  We still have some comments, remote comments, please, Shadi, can you hear us?

>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA:  Yes, I was very encouraged by the previous speaker, the optimism.  And I did want to touch upon the aspect of people and I think we have talked about that before and there were questions on that.  So we do have the digital divide and this is a problem that we have not yet solved and unfortunately, and that's a real challenge in many ways in terms of affordability, but also in terms of skills, and in terms of accessibility for people with disabilities, and in going forward, I think this is going to be yet another, I mean, already now on the quote, unquote, traditional Internet, we have people who are being left behind.

I think that's one of the main reasons for the IGF in the first place, and, you know, why we are sitting around the room trying to decide the issues and as technology moves forward there is huge potential to solve many problems but also great challenges and I think we need to put this really in the focus with all of the data and all of the technologies that we have been talking about right now.  One of the questions is do people have the skills?  Will they be able to turn on their light bulbs?  Will they be able to, you know, use all of the technologies in the first place or how will this, how will we reap the benefits so that we can realize and not only the business benefit, but the social contract that we as a community have?

>> MODERATOR:  Before moving, again, I have to read a contribution, a remote contribution from Amos Vutsa.  He was supposed to be also a speaker here, remote speaker, but he had a technical problem so he sent us his contribution.  So here it is.  Thank you for inviting me to take part of this workshop and share in the African perspective.  My name is Amos Vutsa from farmer line limited in Ghana and we are into solutions that bridge the communication gap and data collection mostly from the rural communities.

As IoT is new, it is even a challenge for Africa than an innovation.  This is because almost 60% to 70% of people live in the rural sections with low connectivity.  It is, therefore, more difficult to implement IoT solutions and make it more sustainable.  That is IoT projects in Africa just like (Indiscernible) is focused on low cost and low energy conception and long range communication device.  It's very important because for the rural farmer to be able to benefit and pay for such device goes beyond just the data collection, but the predictive and information delivery in the most simplest form.

The value of IoT to dedicate is very clear, but for Africa where most of the people live on a very low income, it's important to consider how to move from funded projects and research and make IoT solutions ready for market products.  IoT for agriculture in Africa is considering how to make the over 75% small holder farmers benefit from their less than two acre farms.  It's also important to consider data security and privacy even though most of the African countries have no open regulations to protect their citizens.

And it is the reason why the Internet is mostly housed by the few that have access and don't understand the implications of sharing every data.  It also makes it difficult to convince the rural farmer what IoT is and how they will benefit.  As the world tries to connect everything to the Internet, it's important to (Indiscernible) rural communities who mostly make up the majority and almost 75% of world food.

It's, therefore, important to consider the low energy and the longer range communication device so as to reduce the cost of implementing IoT solutions and build sustainable business models around them.  Thank you, and I would like to end here.  Thank you Amos for your contribution.  Now, Sam.

>> SAM PALTRIDGE:  Just to respond to a couple of the points made, first, I think you are absolutely right, and the Internet has been remarkable in both keeping traffic local, developing more local solutions and that's certainly wise to do that.  Traffic really wants to stay local, and part of the solution to some of the challenges I was mentioning before certainly is keeping that traffic local.

You also made the point about private networks and I think you are absolutely right there.  Hospitals or factories will generate lots of data, but that doesn't need to be transmitted over the Internet.  Why I highlighted driverless cars was to go to Elana's point about the exchange of information, to go to the environment that people are talking about, a lot of this data does have to be transmitted, and it has to go between different networks, different providers, different manufacturers, and that's part of the challenge here.  And if you think about that in terms of the telecom infrastructure, you have to start to think about the back hole, and, yes, you may have lots of fiber in the cities, but there is lots of highways where there may be fiber but there won't be offramps and those sorts of challenges, it's going to be necessary to think about that is to how you deal with that traffic.

And finally on tsunamis, most of the Internet of Things doesn't generate a lot of traffic.  It's, you know, environmental sensors and things like that that do not generate a lot of traffic, and, again, a lot of traffic doesn't need to go on the Internet, but if we are going to have some things where that needs to be transmitted then there may be challenges, and Pedro says that the technology will run ahead.  It always has.  I think it's an open question this time for driverless cars, and I think it's something we can talk about over the coming years.  We don't have many years to talk about it because they are coming very quickly.  Thank you.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  So we have to move to the end so I would invite the panelists who want to speak some final words, perhaps say how the business point of view would answer or respond for the questions raised in this panel.  So who wants to talk?  To feel free to give the final words.  So perhaps two, three, or all of us if you want to say something.

>> SERGE MVONGO:  Just quickly, I think for the technology is there and I think we are moving towards it.  5G, IoT, lasting spectrum, it will make differences in the cost of the implementing the solutions so you could potentially set up a smaller, cheaper network in a remote place in Africa that does not need all the bells and whistles.  And that's happening in the 2018‑2019 time frame, but really it's important that we think about it in terms of open and interoperability so if west end Europe develops a standard or something that works, that could be transmitted to Eastern Europe or if you are moving to Hong Kong or Indonesia.  That's standardization of solution is very important.

And I think the last area is processing on the edge, I think you touched on it and making sure that we only offload data that needs to go off the Internet and you can have actionable information there.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you.

>> MARCIA OGAWA MATSUBAYASHI:  In terms of business point of view, I think the technology is already available, and there are relevant business cases even in countries in Latin America and if we not do this, others will do it on our behalf.

>> MODERATOR:  Okay.  Very last comment.

>> PEDRO MALO:  I think it's great to be part of this Internet of Things world.  It's a new world.  We live today Internet.  It's in one lifetime we will leave the Internet of Things, Internet of what we can live on.  It's fast‑growing thing, and I think there is a lot of potential for this Internet of Things and a lot of money that can be generated and I expect also not only money, but maybe a new societal model, maybe a new way of involving people in the society, in the politics because we are so satisfied from politics and strange things happen like in the U.S., like in France, like in Austria, right, things are starting to be strange.

So we need to bring people back again to the stand and involve, and I think the Internet of Things can also do this, new accountability, new openness, new transparency, everything of these things I think is important, and the Internet of Things can make it happen.

>> MODERATOR:  Okay.  It's time to finish.  You may realize that we don't talk a lot about privacy and security, trust, interoperability because all of this talk have been already taken in the previous sessions, and so our focus was the Internet of Things in the business point of view, and I hope that you will enjoy to be with us.  Thank you very much for you all, and especially I want to thank the invited speakers and including those who are remotely participating.  Thank you very much for all.


(Concluded at 0423).