IGF 2022 Day 2 DC-DDHT Community Connection to Ehealth, Telemedicine & MIoT – RAW

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Okay.  I think we will start and hopefully others will join us.  We have a video trip.  I am going to try to share my screen with all of you.  So please bear with me for a moment there.  Let's see.  How do I do that?  Tech support ‑‑ here we go.  Share screen.  Hold on.  Standing here.  Is that visible?  Okay.  Thank you.  So thank you vor much.  So a warm welcome to everyone who is here with us today.  We are the United Nations internet governance forum and coalition on eHealth technologies and we are presenting this session.  Community connection to eHealth telemedicine and the medical Internet of things.  So it is to bring together various stakeholders for conversation and we hope that enriches the (?) shared amongst us.  So that's each shareholder group has a place they can have a conversation, ask questions and then feel better informed.  I myself I'm an accountant and economists in computer science.  We have lawyers and medical doctors and nurses.  We have just eye full gamut of people interested in this space.  In particular, we are interested in the new emerging technologies not so merging any longer of Artificial Intelligence, machine learning and so forth.  Because we're very concerned about data, highway it is collected, how it is stored, how it is shared, how it is disposed of and so forth.  And we also want to be able to say let's open up data.  Let's think about sharing in anonymous way, non‑intrusive that's inclusive and diverse at the same time, which is very important for medical science.  And serves delivery as well.  We also very interested in telemedicine.  We know with COVID it's very, very important.  And we know that many communities are going to retain telemedicine as a preferred manner of service delivery for a large number of health situations.

So this is a discussion where we're here talking about community connection.  We've talking about how can the community Connect together?  And this can mean international community, it can mean the regional community or national level community.  It can be in a village and we're talking about how you can help each other Connect and we're talking also about the good samaritan who maybe someone who doesn't need healthcare services at the same time, but has the opportunity to support someone whether it's with technology, whether it's with devices, whether it's with skills to help someone stick on board to the Internet and so forth.  So that's whats session is about.  We have invited guest speakers to talk to us about what their experiences have been and what the insight are, observation are, what they think the risks are, issues are and concerns are and so forth.

So session says welcome.  And, ah, part 1 is a number of invited speakers and in part 2, we're going to open up the floor.  First D.C members who would like to comment will make this comment as well.  A number of them have worked very, very hard throughout the year on a number of sessions on the international telecommunications union at the IGF intersixal activities.  We have where I went papers and have a book that's online.  There's a link in the session.  First that link and it is a fantastic collection of articles.  And yes.  So we look forward to sharing that with you and please I think that's (?) and we'll talk about that a little bit later as well.

>> Amali, good morning.  Here is (inaudible) ‑‑

>> AMALI De SILVA:  (?) Gomez is with us on D.C.  I have a video clip with him and I will play that shortly.  We have from Sean Dodge from Capital Markets of the United States and he'll give an insight in investment in eHealth.  I don't believe we have the number of Parliament from Canada.  I'm not sure Ms. Shaw will be with us.  They'll be able to join us, but we do have Lidia with us and we hope that Gerry will be aim to join us shortly online.  I know he's trying to Connect but it is really not easy Connecting to this session.  So anyways, so I'm going to start.  Sit back, relax and listen to these YouTube videos.  I'm going to try this out.

>> In the mean time, Amali, can you hear me?  Hello?  Your presentation is here?  She is presenting.  Okay.  Ooh mali, can you hear me?

>> Here I am.  Yes.  Thank you.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  I lost sound again.  Can someone mute themselves because we did hear ‑‑ why is that not working there?  I'm going to start again and let's see whether this works.

>> I don't know in the mean time, thank you so much all for all the attendants here physically.  It's a real pleasure for our Dynamic Coalition having you here.  We'll listen to what you are doing now.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Can you hear that?

>> Yes.  I can hear you.  Video can you can tell they have copies of the link and she can straightly go to YouTube.

>> Do you think ‑‑ who is controlling the presentation right now because she ‑‑  she's controlling.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Do you hear what is going on?

>> Yes, I can hear you, but I don't know.  You can hear me?  We cannot communicate.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Can you hear me?

>> Yes.  Can you hear us?

>> Excuse me.  There is something confusing going on.  There is a captioning going on for some different discussion.

>> Actually other the majority of is it comes from the introduction of the technologies and this movements even in diagnostic, but also the treatments.  And, um, they do not currently (inaudible) how medicine is performed.  It slightly increase at the outcomes for the processes.  However, I copy them that this expenditure happens due to the fact that ‑‑ everything is possible with interest and the 80 from the technologies or factors they can count.  But if on one the traditional physical examination is not possible, it is also up to us to change this gap to close it and to reinvent the process that was established as being the regular medical practice.  And for this to happen, what we need is interoperability with everyone being considered in this process from patients to governments, to healthcare professionals and administrations in the facilities.  And ultimately, it's joined effort, an effort that should be taken by everyone.  We need to be well aligned and decisions made forward.  Of course policy helps, but sometimes it's binding and that fact is not necessarily very motivating, but it drives change.  Thank you so much.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Okay.  Thank you.  Can you ‑‑ can you hear me?  I'm going to just try ‑‑

>> There was a conflict with the video and the Zoom at the same time.  We only see your (?).  We do not see the video.  Then I think for the sake of time, Amali, we can continue with the agenda in skipping the video at this point.  What about that?

>> AMALI De SILVA:  I have another video too.  Someone said here's the video link.  So I will give the video links to people.  Let me do that.  So there are two video links.  Um, and please ‑‑ what we will do is we will post this to our website for everyone to see.  Is there any way for IT to share the videos for us?

>> You can see the link for the techy guy who is (?) to you and he can try to do it on site.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  I have shared too because they're both important topics.  So tech, you can please try to play both the links that are sent to you now?

>> How long does it take for both videos, Amali?

>> AMALI De SILVA:  About 9 minutes.  (Multiple speakers at once) no, no.  We need to do both.  We need to do both.  We have plenty of time.  We have plenty of time.  So please, technology, you can please play both?

>> Okay.  Hold a moment.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  We're missing a couple of speakers.  We have plenty of time.

>> Can we make some introductions, Amali?  Do you agree with that?

>> AMALI De SILVA:  We did at the beginning.  We did at the beginning.  We did.

>> There are some other people here in the audience.  Okay.  It looks like they're going to try.  Yeah.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  So two videos, please.

>> Nevertheless, excited for the opportunity.  We are here briefly touching on IT investing.  What we're seeing from the proliferation technologies.  We put our conclusion upfront and we'll get into more detail in just a moment.  We are encouraged by the funding and innovation trend we're seeing.  (?) they're not getting commiserate outcomes.  There are a handful of reason yes this is the case.  The majority stays from the reimbursement system how we pay for healthcare and it is aligned and disenfranchising individuals which are both combined and contributing situations and we find ourselves in.  Since we have been working on spaces and we're seeing this across the space with respected things like increased funding, accelerating and innovation for individual awareness.  Comfort using new technologies and new payment models.  There are reasons to be hopeful.  There are two critical elements necessary to drive this forward.  One is good technology ands other is individuals who are willing and incentivize to use it.  On the first, the technology has been positive and significant increases we have seen over the last few years for investment and funding in the space.  I will share some numbers to help with contacts and offer thoughts here.  The vast majority is used to drive innovation.  So we expect to see exciting accelerations and advancements in the space.  We look at top 2 technologies being funded per telehealth and start ups incorporating Artificial Intelligence continue to be most funded and targeted areas.  What is also interesting is these funding numbers they're not capturing the sizeable investments being made in the space by very large less traditional players.  Some examples here are Amazon.  Of course, the pill pack pharmacy and now in the process of acquiring one medical, which is getting the brick and motorar healthcare.  CVS has the signify and last year saw Oracle and Wal‑Mart recently bought a telehealth company.  The point is lots of money deployed in the space which sets off the cycle that will help acceleration in the years to come.

The second element is consumer behavior.  The pandemic was a big accelerant.  Did a wonderful job in first time utilization of all different kinds of technology.  Awareness and comfort have come a long way in a short amount of time.  Quick data here.  One company we follow, Stair Cycle, they did a survey around individual behavior.  They found that 45% of respondements now report receiving healthcare at a non‑traditional venue outside of their doctor's office.  This is magnitude that would have been pre‑pandemic.  To wrap up and apologies for having to keep this time levelnessing we're more than happy to follow up with anyone wanting to dig into detail.  The message we want to get across here is when it comes to healthcare and technology, the pieces are falling into place.  Investment and spaces are accelerating quickly and we have much more engaged and individuals looking for better and cheaper alternatives for their healthcare.  We remain optimistic on the future.  Thank you.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Thank you.  Can we play the other video?  Next video?

>> It's precisely here that I would like to start with my first point with the opportunity coming from the technologies.  We don't look as them as simple gimmicks, but mostly as an opportunity to empower so they can have a positive impact on themselves, but also on their families and on their communities.  The final goal in any of these technologies should be clear.  It is for the benefit of the patients and ultimately the improvements of their status.  This is not to say that anything that goes beyond that should be eliminated.  We are not expecting, for example, that NVP that provides benefits from the get go, but we should have a well defined added value long‑term goal.  If this goal is quite clear, the path to achieve it and the means are not necessarily that objective.  So this can be achieved either through the improvements in the treatment outcomes, faster diagnosis, easier monitoring or even through the process of training the patients zone out to educate themselves and out to manage their own conditions.  And I would like to emphasize this points in particular which is that it is quite important that patients engage in self‑monitoring.  Not all of them will have this need and not all of them will have that will.  But it is not something that should be forced or should be available for the patients to choose and to (?) when given that option.  There is this component of responsibility, empowerments and accountability when the patient is able to actively engage.  And, um, we also know that an engaged patient is a patient that most willingly complies with the mean of therapies and the plan that was defined.  There is no shortage of example of technologies such as biometric sensors, apps, wearables that facilitate this process.  And on the other end, we have to consider the societal and economic impact which the cost can be reduced guy governments or citizens.  Nonetheless, I must add that data on expenditure doesn't back the statement and by this, I mean that we actually see increased costs coming along the introduction of these technologies.  So one of the main drivers of increased health expenditure over the last years could be thought to be the example that we are getting older or that longevity is increasing.  This accounts for a small percentage of this increased in the expenditure and the majority of it comes from the introduction of the technologies and improvements in the diagnostic, but also in the treatment path.  And they do not fully disrupt how medicine is performed.  They just slightly increase the outcomes or the processes.  However, I'm confident that this expenditure happens due to the fact that these technologies are novel.  A lot of costs are sunk into the developments of the technologies themselves.  I'm into studying the IS applications for those.  Of course, there are other barriers and we must not overlook those.  Not anything is possible with literacy and reliability are taken into account.  But if on one end, the traditional, physical examination is not possible, it's also up to us to change this gap to close it and to reinvent the process.  That was formerly established being the regular medical practice.  For this to happen, what we need is interoperability with everyone being considered in this process from patients to governments, else hadcare professionals to the administrations of our facilities.  And ultimately, it is joint effort and it is an effort that should be undertaken by everyone.  So we need to be very well aligned in the decisions that are made forward.  Of course, policy helps.  Sometimes gets binding and that fact is not necessarily very motivating but definitely drives change.  We have to consider all the factors when definitely looking for the change in our healthcare performed these days.  It's on this note that I want to conclude and thank you so much for the opportunity.  I'm definitely sure to follow through on the outcomes of this panel and to have further conversations with all of you.  Thank you so much.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Thank you so much.  Thank you, tech, for sharing those videos with us.  I will now go back to ‑‑ can you hear me?  Yes.  Great.  I will now go back to sharing my screen.

>> Okay.  For the moment, Amali, we cannot hear you.  Hold a moment.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  I'm not sure.  Is Mr. Bastiaan online with us at all?  Bastiaan, are you in the room?  I don't believe Mr.‑‑ I'm going to move to the last two speakers Ms. Lidia Best and Mr. Gerry Ellis and I'm going ‑‑ they have been collaborating on this piece.  So I'm going to Lee this to both of them to take up from here.  The floor is yours, Lidia and Gerry.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Thank you very much for inviting me here, but I would like first to give the floor to Gerry because Gerry would like to take up first.  So Gerry, you're right there?  Gerry is not ready?

>> GERRY ELLIS:  You can hear me now?

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Go.

>> GERRY ELLIS:  Good morning to everyone from Ethiopia or anywhere around the world.  Good morning from Dublin and Ireland.  It is almost 7 o'clock in the morning.  Okay.  Let me start my video.  Okay.  Is that better?  Okay.  Let's get going.  I'm blind and Lidia is hard of hearing.  So we're going to speak on the area of accessibility for people with disabilities.  There are 1.3 billion people with disabilities in the world today and if that's not quite accurate, we say that at least 1 in 7 people alive today have some level of disability.  So the area of disability is not a fringe issue.  It is very much at the core of health and society.  There are a number of inter(?) disability frameworks which have been developed over the years which indicate this is also not a fringe policy issue, but an issue that is at the forefront of international policies.  So you have to strategic development goals which are speaking about in a moment.  And then you have an agenda to descend the framework, the architecture and (inaudible) plus 10 and, of course, the United Nations convention on the rights of persons with disabilities.

So just to speak a little bit more about those, the first was this meeting in Geneva way back in 2003 and it's follow up in 2005.  (clearing throat) excuse me.  We attempted to get disability and really failed and disability was never mentioned in the millennium development goals.  But disability is now mentioned 11 times in the strategic development goals.  So again, that is an indication that isn't becoming very much front and center.  It's involved in SDG for education and employment, SDG (inaudible), SDG inclusive cities, SDG and (inaudible) recording and presentations to the day that are accessible.  So you can see it is very much front and center.

The United Nations convention on the right of persons with disabilities actually its anniversary comes up December the 3rd.  Disability is mentioned 20 times particularly in articles 25 and 26.  An important thing about the UN convention on the right of persons with disabilities is a differentiate between impairment and disability.  So since impairment is what's happening inside a person's body, most people would consider in this.  So for instance, I'm blind.  Another person may have (?).  UN convention says that's impairment, but what the UN convention says is the failure of society to accommodate the needs of people with impairments.  And that is absolutely crucial to our message.  It is society that creates disability by refusing or failing to meet the needs of 1.3 billion people with disability.  That's a major failure.  So why do you do it in the area of health is that people with disabilities are patients, of course, but many also work in the area of health.  So a person with a disability can be perfectly healthy but maybe a doctor, maybe a nurse, maybe an employee in a hospital or another health center.  So you have to consider that it is not just from the point of view of parents and how do you make all (?), you use universal design T. is an approach that includes the needs of the maximum number of potential users and any amount of documentation out there as to how you implement universal design in technology, in health and any number of standards.  With that, I will hand over to Lidia and Lidia is going to go down to more specific stuff than I.  Thank you and good luck from Dublin.

>> LIDIA BEST:  Thank you.  General discussion around eHealth and telehealth.  My name is Lidia Best and I am the President of the European Federation of Hard of Hearing People.  One of the experts involved in the International Telecommunication Union standardization process.  Now I bring you up following listening to great discussion about AI and how it can be used and how it can be beneficial for patients.  AI can be as good as it can be, but if it is not accessible to persons with disabilities and the doctors, it is not in various form.  Therefore, I would like to introduce you to the work organization and ITU joined collaboration on developing global standard for accessibility of telehealth services.  The standard is completely free and downloadable for anyone who would like to use it and who should be encouraged to use if.  The profiler of the actual accessibility of telehealth has been raised during the pandemic.  As we know, most of the healthcare services do continue using a form of providing healthcare.  And the challenges have been quite documented across the world of a person with disabilities using the services.  There are no guidances, no for accessibility and, you know, most of the services are completely inaccessible.  So a new standard, which has been developed with the organizations for persons with disabilities has been targeting governments, healthcare service providers and manufacturers of telehealth platforms.  And most importantly, those who are involved in the procurement of the services, meaning national health services, et cetera.  It does provide technical requirements that the telehealth platform must have to ensure accessible telehealth provision and it is implemented and has massive potential for inclusion.  I will not say what exactly is in the expand, but in general, all of the different persons with disabilities, blind, deafness, hard of hearing, speech language difficulties, mobility, mental health, et cetera are included in the standard.

And I will give you just shortly, how the standard works.  It has the requirements.  It also has the issues.  So the issues are presented and what exactly is the issue?  And when it follows up with the requirements.  For example the requirements are we don't go into issues now, but video conferencing should provide captioning and monitoring chatbox that has volume control provision along separate windows for the people who are deaf and hard of hearing.  The text messaging including in the service and it also in case of a video is not working or audio.  And the remote sound and interpretation should be also enabled.

In addition, subtitling not in the way that we can actually use the subtitling.  So it doesn't blend in the background.  One more thing is important is also that we screen for the telehealth must be (?) for lip readers.  Lip reading is very important for many people like myself who is hard of hearing.  In addition, this standard also includes a planning phase.  Lots of times, the telehealth platform must be accessible.  The planning process and identifying the needs of a patient with specific needs related to disabilities is not well when we cannot even use the platform, which is access age.  So the planning requirements provide accessible ways and means to make an initial appointment by e‑mails, SMS, and online booking systems to provide the range because as we heard before, we have all the people using the technology which we may not be familiar with.  And it needs ‑‑ we need to make sure that the person with disabilities we allocate more time during appointments.  We shouldn't be using the standard appointments.  And also provide robust and transparent registration which identifies with individual requirements.  Most of all, we have brief training or more in depth for healthcare professional or how to communicate with persons with disabilities and how to interact.  All these technologies which are being made up accessible will still not benefit everyone because we don't know how to interact with each of them.  So this is a very short introduction of a new standard for me which is launched in June this year.  And I really hope more people will start looking in implementing.  Thank you.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Thank you very much, Lidia and Gerry.  Very insightful introduction to the excellent work that has been going on.  And I hope that everyone will implement that work.  I myself as well have been working on something called gender base analysis which includes accessibility looking to accessibility issues as well.  And I know it's very, very important as we all are going digital and online.  (inaudible) and (inaudible) access to the internet.  So thank you so much for that introduction.

I don't believe ‑‑ I will now move on.  I don't believe our other speakers are with us.  So I think we'll move on to part 2 and then we're just going to have an open discussion with anyone in the room.  And anyone else as well.  So part 2 basically I want to say that we are launching here today what we call a toolkit for onboarding to the Internet.  And in this case, what we're doing is we're asking all of you and anyone you may know who would like to participate to share with us through a piece, a written piece on issues pertaining to onboarding as Lidia and Gerry had been talking about.  Tips.  We already had a piece on privacy and I encourage you to visit our web page on the Internet governance forum website.  The link is on the bottom of the session.  And we want to add to this.  We want to add any tips, any insight tips that people have on supporting individuals on board to the Internet or supporting good samaritans who may come in to support someone on board to the Internet.  So please welcome to share our Dynamic Coalition piece and we hope that we can publish it with our other pieces as well.  So that's one.

The next part is I wanted to invite anyone from Dynamic Coalition to speak.  Is there anyone who would like to speak?  Please, please raise your hand.  Frederick, would you like to have the floor?

>> Frederick:  Yes.  We want everyone in the room if somebody wants to participate, please tell us.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Yes.

>> We have ‑‑ we have, um, by the way Amali, (?) with us who kindly joined this session from the ‑‑ also the Dynamic Coalition on collaboration of health.  If you allow me, I can bring him to make a participation.  Thank you.

>> Thanks for this wonderful session and a great way to start the day.  This is the need.  During COVID, what was proven earlier like digital health is health and not the other way around.  I'm glad this is working in this area and we must collaborate and I think onboarding is a great initiative because that's very critical to make sure there is a universal adoption and not just among clinicians, but also among workers.  And anything we can do to support, we'll be very happy to do that.  We'll do this on the future of Internet with the (?).  I look forward to supporting you.

>> Thank you very much, doctor.  He has a book in our IGF village.  We invite all of you to visit him and all the materials he kindly is providing there for us.  Now I want to invite Ms. June Paris.  She is also a former healthcare professional.  Nowadays, very closely involved with the digital (inaudible) in healthcare sector.  June, the floor is yours.

>> June:  Good morning, everyone.  I am June Paris from Barbados.  I'm involved with the internet society but I'm also as a former healthcare professional, I'm really happy to see this Dynamic Coalition come into the floor.  It is very important that we discuss health, especially people with disabilities.  It is so important that we bring the problems to the floor and discuss how we can solve these problems.  I'm very happy to be a part of this discussion and I will give you all the support that you need.

>> Thank you very much, June.  Is there somebody else here in the room who wants to make any remark?  Roberto is also here with us from Latin America.  Maybe you can share experiences in Bolivia and the applications of the telemedicine and some results from the perspectivef the ministry that you were collaborating with.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much and good morning, everyone.  Well, indeed, in Bolivia, there were a couple of programs of telemedicine, but in 2008, I will say from that moment and beyond, there were programs to take advantage later on when we deploy it on the satellite.  There were programs that wanted to take advantage of this resource and to provide this kind of services to populations in the rural area when we don't have ‑‑ well, when we are lacking health facilities, but also medical personnel.  So that was an initial step, but the problem again was the lack of specialized equipment because ‑‑ but by that time, it's not only about communication, but also about having the correspondent to provide this kind of connection between the health service facilities in the cities and to take those that kid of connection with that kind of physicians to the rural area.

The other problem was that initially, the expectations about having a satellite connection and to provide this kind of services remotely couldn't be totally fulfilled because the kind of connection that we know we need for certain applications wasn't needed.  What I mean is that finally the government managed to get a specialized equipment with monitors, with telepresence kits, but the problem then was that the kind of speech that this equipment required were not sufficient going through the satellite connection.  But it is continuous working.  There were some other programs that were established during pandemic and I will say that we as community, we get our expectations below.  For that time, another interesting experience was that most of the crowded service happens regarding the attention that had to deal with massive amount of people requiring health services.  And back then, I'm not currently working anymore, but back then I was working and in charge of the IT sector in the city hall in LA PAZ.  We had to work with ministry regarding providing this kind of attention.  So to this massive people.  We use basics.  We used What's App and the facilities they have regarding connection with the video of this kind of tool and back then, it was important to have it because it allows us to reduce all the load we're receiving in the traditional channels and in the initial facilities.  It's important to keep going and this I think there are many tools.  There are many kind of equipment now that providers we don't have really universal connection as it happens in many parts of global south.  That's something that we need to reach because even though we have equipment, even though we have professionals, health professionals, we are preventing to provide universal services to the people that doesn't have Internet connection in rural areas.  That's the experience I can share.  Thank you very much, Amali.

>> Thank you, Roberto.  Yes.  If you will be so kind to give your name, where you come from and please, make your mark

>> Thank you.  My name is (?).  I work for the technology show.  My question is I would like to know about the services, health service included in the Ehills.  What kind of services?  Is it simply consulting services?  Patients, and doctor relationships sometimes need physical contact and so what kind of electronic health services are included in your premises and do we have or do you have state of art software to ‑‑ that can be engaged in electronic health.  I also would like to know the role of Artificial Intelligence in eHealth sector.  Thank you.

>> Thanks for your question.  I personally ‑‑ I am a physician myself.  I got a specific training in Germany in medical inPHormatics and that's how I got into the whole initiative of the IGF.

From the start point of the medical informatics industry let's say, we have different projects here in Africa specifically some initiatives in a partnership with another groups in Canada and in order to try to introduce the Ministry of health in Ethiopia which tools can be useful in your 84 regions that your country has and how it can be possible to eventually have this universal access footage Roberto was mentioning.  I think right now as one of the speakers told us, self‑management occurs is one of the key stones of the health sector in order to improve the healthcare or just the level of health in this kind of community.  We are not really very different from yours.  Maybe here in Ethiopia it's a little bit more rural, but at the end of the day, we are facing similar problems.  And then I think for the physicians, the local physicians who are working at the small clinics in the rural areas certainly is going to be very key to take advantage of the different initiatives to Connect those clinics into this Clouding service that also Roberto mentioned about.  And taking karat least, at least some kind of electronic medical record for the clinic which could be interfaced with the regional electronic medical record from this region.  Hopefully some day also through the Minister of health.  There was another key word used by one of the speakers which is interoperability.  It is something that we have to work as a group or together he also mentioned.  That is not having the standards.  Standards are available there.  The standards to exchange a message.  Standards to come to medical terms.  Standardize and (inaudible) medicine.  Standards for parsing the medicaltect like ELMS which is a standard from the initial standard.  Right now it's coming to an agreement with the who.  Some other standards for others and so on.  ICD11 is coming into this worldwide most probably next year.  It will be a level in Europe, in Africa, I'm sorry.  And probably in '24, it is going to be mandatory to use it.  It has a different approach how to classify decisions.  And that's going to be also a very interesting breakthrough in order to improve the way how we are taking advantage of the technology in order to learn a little bit more about the environment, the public health standards or indicators that we have around us and also how can we help patients to have kind of a personal agenda on their own health, on their own management of health.  Then I think from the perspective of the IGF, which is a multi‑stakeholder initiative, I think there is a place for cyber society academia industry, and try to define which will be for each region the best way to go.  Certainly language is also challenged.  You have here, I think ‑‑ I can evaluate at least 200, 250 local dialects which you have to use to incorporate to this kind of work.  Certainly the work health organization is not going to provide the translation into that, but if we, as I mentioned to you, if we can collaborate, the electroniccal tools are already available.  Certainly we are at the mark and at the Dynamic Coalition.  We're really very open to collaborate together with you and see how we can take advantage of it.  There is also one of the speakers who mentioned that there is a very important initiative nowadays from a collaborative group between the who the world health organization in ITU in order to develop the new standards of which ‑‑ in order for us to use the Artificial Intelligence into the healthcare in different areas.  It's very, very interesting for you to take a look at the page of the who and see the different working groups at least to know what's going on, at least to learn what is already happening.  Eventually because when this committee comes with a final first version of the standards, they have to be put in place.  We have to be part of them.  Of course, IGF is responsible for us to be very inclusive and we want to help raise our voice through the special (?) and through the global digital compact in order to have the health application, the application of technology to the healthcare sector to have it as a priority.  But please let us know what you ‑‑ what you find here in your communities that is important to be included into the standards.  How can IGF be kind of a bridge between what's going on right now in this very high level techy guys and techy initiatives and the reality in our countries and how this ‑‑ this institutional tools can help you to improve.  Sorry.  I have another intervention here from the room.  Amali, do you agree?

>> AMALI De SILVA:  I also want to make a point.

>> Yes.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  The gentleman, I'm located here in Canada.  I reside here.  I want to say this is lots of Private Sector initiatives.  Now, I know for instance, all the testing, the medical testing done of patients, a lot of it is done under very large contract to accompany the private company.  And they manage the data and so forth of the patients.  So that's obviously of interest and concern for patients.  So I'm speaking from a patient perspective.  We also have here very large integration between the general practitioner and the hospitals.  So immediately, if you visit a hospital, you have all the tests and everything and there's a huge initiative to integrate the information shared between the various groups.  I also read in the newspaper recently they're also going to integrate the initiatives of mental health and that also includes integrating the police as well.  If they need to collaborate, the police need to collaborate with the hospital and vice‑versa.  That is also being opened out.  So we're hearing a lot of initiatives of opening data sets and collaborating on information, but definitely here.  You can ‑‑ there's a lot of Private Sector initiatives going on and a lot of GPs are also using a lot of Private Sector (?) to run the actual practices.  And we heard about that on various discussions.  I have to stress one thing that the dynamic coalition is citizen focused, global citizen focused.  So our perspective is that anybody who is a global citizens who has an issue please come and share that with us because we're just open to the general public who are encountering issues or have ideas for betterment and so forth.  We are a little unusual in that way that we are very much grass roots citizen focused.  So thank you.  I'm not sure if Frederick and Herman want to speak first before we go back to the floor.  Would you like to have the floor, Frederick?

>> I think the point is very important and people like you who amplify the coalition should cover What's App, e‑mail and teleconference to get information.  A doctor talking to a doctor or even among themselves is covered under this domain.  So that's what it is.  I hope it answers your question.

>> Yes.  Thank you very much.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  One point.  When we're working in this environment as the honorary citizen, we are concerned about things like health insurance.  Definitely see increasing in Asia as well.  When we look in the information systems, one of the issues is privacy and anonymity and so forth and how our data is shared and, um, and, you know, the concept that we have out of Europe and so forth and in Canada and UK.  This is something we have ‑‑ these are business issues that impact the patient and the user.  So I wanted to bring that in that when we're looking at this whole space, we're also looking at other important aspects of healthcare which is insurance, legal aspects of it, accounting aspects for it and so fort and this must not be forgotten as well.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  Will you please introduce yourself and make your point?  Thanks.

>> Thanks.  Sorry.  My English is not (?) because I come from French country.  My name is Juneas.  I am a Manager program in communication and digital economy ministry.  My question concern the managing of the human resources.  The technology in telemedicine you have agreed that it is very important for our society, but in the product sector, there is a lot of movement between public sector and Private Sector.  When you give that, you increase your competencies of the human resources.  You increase competencies of doctors, of nurses.  They Lee the Private Sector to go out to the Private Sector.  My question is:  What kind of business model do you use to fix your human resource to the product sector?

>> Thank you very much for your point.  You know, this problem that is, um, it's a reality in most of the countries.  I'm going to share with you some experiences of Latin America and in Germany where I had some experience.  The public sector is based upon on the continuous education programs they have already in place.  They are trying to develop their capacity building strategies in order to have a ‑‑ let's say, ah, try to diminish the rate that usually happens here.  Right now after the pan demmings, of course, this is ‑‑ pandemics, of course, this is where healthcare personnel is thinking twice if they continue in this area or not and selfof them are quitting ‑‑ several of them are quitting and on top of that, the economical perspectives and Private Sectors sometimes are better than at the public one.  It is certainly challenged.  No matter that, I think public sector has to deal with the possibility as I already mentioned to be part of this new initiatives coming up from different rationale organizations who can help you to introduce new infrastructure, new resources for you to change a little bit the paradigm of the presence healthcare providing services to go more in line and thinking much of the personnel you have available there.  At least in Mexico, what we are trying to do is to help personnel to be more prepared, better prepared to take advantage of the devices, to take advantage of the systems that we have already in place and that they try to do the best in order to provide the best quality of care, the best possible quality of care that they have in the reach.  But certainly, sir, we should work together on how to motivate the personnel and how to help them to feel satisfied with what they are doing at the public sector.  I don't know, June, maybe you have another important aspect there.

>> June:  The public sector perhaps is lack in funds and I think that they need to update training.  They're not really up to date on training and funds are not allocated probably in the best possible way.  Whereas the Private Sector, I always prefer to work with the Private Sector because they're more efficient.  They look after the patients interest, the research of what they should do.  They are willing to buy equipment to the service and they tend to try to be more available to the community.  You can talk to them.  You can get if touch with them.  You can say this is what I want.  You can discuss ‑‑ you can have a good discussion in the private sector with those people in the Private Sector.  People who manage the private sector whereas in the public sector, it is valuation difficult.  There is lots of red tape and bureaucracy.  There's an ability to move forward.  The ability to think outside the box and say this is what we should do.  We should improve healthcare and do things a little better.  They're stuck in their ways as public sectors ‑‑ public servants and they have to go through all these bureaucratic situations and going through the Ministers and Parliament and passing this and passing that.  The private sector has got more flexible.  This is why people like me I prefer to work in the private sector.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Thank you, June.  I will take something here.  One more comment.  Lidia has requested the floor.  I want to make sure that everyone understands that over the past 20 years, we started about 20 years ago when we started working on the health issue and the internet and seeking that patients get more information available for them on the internet.  And in Canada, for instance, there's a huge healthcare.  They have put a lot of public information out there for patients so they can understand about their diseases, ask questions and so forth.  This is something that I think can be really made useful across the planet and something we have talked about as well and this is where something like Artificial Intelligence can be very supportive in helping patients get self‑informed and educated.  I just want to share that.  That can come from a Private Sector initiative or from a public sector initiative.  Now Lidia has requested the floor.  Lidia, take the floor.

>> LIDIA BEST:  Thank you for the ability to speak a little bit.  I'm very grateful.  Having listened to everyone in the room, I would like to again highlight what accessibility is pre‑condition of participation.  And that means if we're talking about patients, participation in my own heart, we have practitioners unless we have effective information, effective tools that allow that participation.  We're not going to get well.  For the people who are deaf and hard of hearing, there's an understanding of the communication of questions can lead to the wrong answers from a patient.  And as a result, can lead to a wrong diagnosis.  So we need to remember what accessibility is paramount in this field.  And it's great and I believe that the Private Sector has a lot, especially in the innovation areas, but they often sometimes ‑‑ maybe not often, but maybe now it is much more highlighted, but we forget sometimes about accessibility.  I know of many different professionals using What's App for example.  It is great for messaging.  It is great for people who can hear and lip read during the video calls, but it is mot for everyone.  It is making sure we understand what we need and how we can enable effective communication with the patient and the healthcare professional.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Thank you very much.  Amad, over to you.

>> The floor is open to any other participation.  Is there anybody else trying to raisea point or share with us some experiences?  Okay.  If it is not the case, then, Amali, I suggest you come up with some conclusions and wrap up the meeting, please.

>> 

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Yes.  I will ask again whether Frederick Cohen wants the floor.  Put your hand up if you do.  I don't see any hand up.  So I just wanted to thank everybody for coming to this session.  It really was fantastic.  We had such a breath of issues discussed from everything from AI to accessibility to investment, to everything.  So I would say that we have covered a number of issues and I think what I would like to say is please come and join our Dynamic Coalition and participate throughout the year.  And next year, we hope we can focus on robot takes as well and how that's going to come into healthcare.  So please join us.  I think in summary, I will say that we have covered a number of issues.  One that stands outside is accessibility and ensuring that we are always aware, always including all the diverse groups of people that we call our population.  This is very, very important.  And that's where I would like to and perhaps, Amad, would you like to say something to wrap up?

>> AMADO ESPINOSA:  Yes.  I want to thank all the participate ants here for joins us.  I encourage you to keep in touch or to join the Dynamic Coalition that we already have for the health.  It's very, very important for us to have a wider participation in order to learn from the different experiences worldwide and try to manage an agenda.  Next year's Ig F is going to be very key.  It's in one of the latest countries in the world managing technology and specifically IT for healthcare in Japan is really, really at the upfront where it is possible to do.  Especially in an aging society, in a society which is really very close related to the technology where the human values has to be addressed there and where the different realities from different regions have to be exposed, shared with them in order for them to learn that there are other realities different than what they are looking at this point.  It will be very important for us to be part of this discussion to bring important topics there, which are a concern from your side and the Dynamic Coalition can be the best to address them.  No further points?  Okay.  Thank you very much, everybody, for joining us.  My name is Amado Espinosa.  Yes.  Anything we can do in order to help you, we are at your service.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Thank you, everybody.  My name is Amali de Silva and I'm the founder and coordinator of this Dynamic Coalition.  Thank you so much.

>> Thank you, everybody.

>> AMADO ESPINOSA:  Bye‑bye, Amali.

>> AMALI De SILVA:  Bye, Amado.

>> We cannot hear you.  Sorry.

>> Hi.  Of course.  You can (?) the audio.

>> Hello.  Good morning from Berlin, Germany, to everyone.

>> Hi.

>> Good morning.

>> Hi, Ricardo.

>> RICARDO ISRAEL ROBLES PELAYO:  Hi.  How are you?  Nice to see you too.  Good morning, good afternoon, everyone.

>> Jessy:  Hi, professor.  Thank you for joining us.

>> Good morning, everyone.  We're sourcing technical problems.  It will be another 2 to 5 minutes.

>> Hi.  Hi.  Hi.  Can you hear me?

>> Yes.  I can hear you.

>> I'm sorry that (?) he had some troubles Connecting to this workshop.  So I might be the substitute to be a moderator, temporary moderator.  So when are we going to start?

>> Jesse:  I think we can start now.

>> Okay.

>> All right.  Cue feng, the room is fully packed.

>> I will speak on behalf of the professor.  Good afternoon, everyone.  Welcome to today's workshop association number 217.  I'm speaking on behalf of professor Tao.  He's a professor at Beijing University.  And he is also the (?) south committee for UN information technology China Association for Science and Technology.  And I will share on behalf of professor Tao.  It is to build joint efforts to build a sponge and sustainable metaverse.  30 years ago today supports by a series of advanced technologies.  Metaverse may be sensitive in new technology evolution.  It's a virtual world linked and created that is scientific.  It interacts with the real world.  It can be further considered as a digital place with new social system.  That means it will change people's lifestyle and drive the environment of this economy because there are still many metaverse relatedd by unsolved problems, the metaverse concept cannot be unified at current stage.  Some claim we need more time to be ready to create such a virtual world.  Each session is privacy information, information with regular challenges need to be addressed.  (?) further, those challenges may not have clear answers stathat stop us from building Eco logical metaverse.  The first step was to cooperate.  So we gather here together to discuss how to build a metaverse that we dream of.

Today's session will focus on key challenges and government issues.  We will discuss what policy framework can help with the department of metaverse.  Before we start today's talk, cell phone would like to invite professor to give us opening speech.  Professor is the Chair of the committee of technology association for science and technology and the past, present of the world federation of engineering organizations.  So let's welcome him.

>> Gong KE:  At first, I would like to on behalf of the seminar organizer, the conservative committee on information technology of China association of science and technology to United Nations.  I extend our warm welcome and sincere greetings to all participants present at the seminar offline or online.

This seminar today rewards around building a responsible and sustainable metaverse.  It's just mentioned by professor Chen.  It is creating great attentions worldwide and just an hour ago, I just heard a presentation on metaverse on so‑called industrial metaverse.  So metaverse is not only just a hybrid of where there is kind of new generation information technologies and innovations.  But it also involves different economical, social, legal and moral aspects.  In terms of technology, metaverse may ‑‑ may post the application and development of virtual and augmented reality digital team, Artificial Intelligence of 5G, mobile communication, edge computing, blockchain and so on and so forth.

But in another aspect from a social and economical aspect, we could not just say the ‑‑ the benefit brought by the new technology by metaverse will also have to pay attention to the risks they will brought up to the human society.  We know a different intelligence is a key player in metaverse or behind metaverse especially a generative Artificial Intelligence, which helps with content production generation, presentation, distribution to operation and maintenance.  In one word, Artificial Intelligence is the strongest for metaverse development.  When we foresee that metaverse may energize the social economical development and may significantly revolutionary ‑‑ revolutionize our economy in a society, we have to consider how to handle the potential risks and challenges during the metaverse development just as the way we deal with Artificial Intelligence.  As to know the recommendations on the ethics of artificial intelligence released at its 41st session of the UNESCO general conference last year exactly one year before in November last year.  That document is the first everybody global standard setting instrument on the ethics of AI and has laid an important cornerstone for the AI governance to ensure its development and application for the good of human kind and the planet.  The document ‑‑ I mean the recommendations on the ethics of Artificial Intelligence stress the four core values which are first respect, protection and promotion of human rights and fundamental freedoms and human dignity.  The second environment and ecosystem flourishing, the third core value is insure diversity and inclusiveness and the fourth core value is living in a peaceful, just and interconnective societies.  Based on these four core values, the recommendation raised our ten principles.  The first proportionality and do no harm.  Second, safety and security.  Third, fairness and non‑discrimination.  Fourth sustainability.  Fifth, right to privacy and data progression.  Sixth, human oversight and determination.  Seventh, transparency and explainability.  Eightth, responsibility and accountability.  Ninth awareness and literacy.  Tenth multi‑stakeholder and adaptive governance and collaboration.  I do believe all these values and principles could and should also apply to metaverse development.  Today's seminar is focusing on responsibility and sustainability of metaverse in order to tackle the uncertainty along with the technological revolution and the changes in the days to come and the years to come.  I'm so glad to have you experience in multiple fills and from different countries in this seminar to discuss the issues on the governance of metaverse development.  And I'm looking forward to your insightful speeches and inspiring dialogue today.  Let us take this seminar as a step of our journey to a safe inclusion, reliable and ethical metaverse featuring responsibility and sustainability.  So I stop here.  Thank you.

>> Thank you, thank you.  Professor gong, for the opening speech.  Principles and values that should apply to metaverse development.  This is very impressive.

So now let's start today east session.  Here we have six experts.  So, um, let's start right now.  Our first speaker is HORST KREM ERS.  His topic is elements of an information digital strategy in support of future mega trends in an Eco logical, responsible and sustainable metaverse.  You have the floor.

>> HORST KREMERS:  I am very honored to be a guest today and my thoughts about Eco logical and sustainable metaverse.  Thank you all so very much for the introduction to the topic, KE Gong, that you gave.  So I also refer to some of the principles you mentioned.  My presentation today has structures that shortly sketch the problem of complexity from United Nations instruments information management.  Complex management is such.  Transparency of algorithms which I think is something very important to the future and pragmatic doing of what happens with the action models that we need.

The united ‑‑ if I go, if I mentioned only part of the text I have in my slides, everyone be sure that in my last slide there is a download link mentioned and I also will send that to the chat so you have all the details in my presentation also for yourself later.  United Nations instruments there is a header for something like transnational declarations frameworks and directives and most of you know those which normally we deal with on everyday BASIS with the UN habitat.  Just to show you, we have a real big problem of complexity here because United Nations in its text requires that we do something about synergies for and from all these programs together.  Now, what does that tell you for information systems?  Just for an example, only part of this problem you see here we're dealing with the framework Agenda for Sustainable Development Paris agreement and systemic approaches.  We have a time spent until 2030.  Now we're in the year 2021, nearly 2023 only 7 years to go to 2030.  At the time of 2030, we will have the next phase of all the programs in place.  Now, if we want to prepare for 7 years in the United Nations, discussions have to start not right now, but we have to be prepared that there is a phase now.  The door is open for giving perspectives of what to do after 2030.  Basic management principles I also want to go into too much of this.  The question is that this is ‑‑ this is general, but as you may if you screen through the topics, you may know that in most of them, there is ‑‑ if you go with a magnifying glass what to do in practice, this is every item here is absolutely crucial to the success of that interoperability that we talk about later.  Think that quality indicators and uncertainties and error propagation in a complex interactive systems and vulnerabilities of the technology, vulnerables not in the disaster, but a problem set that our technology will proliferate if it is not scalable in a very secure way, but, ah, only scalable in an amount of data.  It shouldn't be a problem, but Internet working may be a problem.

Establishing cross organizational information infrastructure is what we do in the most single part of it.  Mostly silos.  It's a big silos where we do it now, but we have to do interoperability in very large silos.  So that is something totally different as we did before.  So that is just to be sure.  Also because of short of time, please read it when you download my presentation afterwards.

We have also the problem of high quality data for decision making support and action alternatives.  It's not a science problem by itself.  All our cert for decision making approach and if there is no action, the whole thing would be useful.  We need the action part in scientific terms pragmatics to go for full semi automatic discussion.  Syntax, semantics pragmatics makes together the full discussion of what we do and you will see some of that later.

Selected domains of current interoperability and best practice.  This is also kind of well known.  It's only a short list of that there is much more action of course nowadays.  Let's go to complexity management issues, a few of them just to touch the problem, not to go into details.  We have the complexity effect, complexity of context.  Please note that separating fact from content is absolutely crucial because if you give the impact or the conditions on fact, you have to separate that in the model.  They shouldn't mix too much in the analysis and storage and models of data.  Complexity of actors organizations stakeholders as also mentioned by KE Gong.  Stakeholders those that are affected in a society mode that is typically wording by United Nations.  So the demand is all of society, especially those that are affectd or will be affected may be disaster, maybe per climate, maybe whatever thing we talk about.  We have to take them into discussion.  First the governance and force is an aim of assistings their needs.

There is also from the technical side in the lower part here you see processes workflows reaction, goals reaching and effects and the consequences.  Not just to make a solution from the typical data science but also to see do we reach the goal?  Do we have effects and consequences on them?  Transparency of algorithm procedures and extractions.  The problem also here I can refer very nicely to KE Gong introduction because in Artificial Intelligence, we have that demand.  If it becomes very high complexity, we have the general problem the transparency of what we do especially not only in data storage.  Then we have complex data models, but when we go to algorithm procedures and extractions with generalizations for every one, for every organization, for every level of decision and whatsoever.  Then we have a different kind of problem.  It ensures fairness and human oversight of algorithms procedures and extractions collecting processing and analyzing data from various sources to the opportunities of risks and social economic impact, documentation and evaluation, algorithms and extractions.  I'm making sure that there's ‑‑ they are in line with legal conditions with everything that governance is ‑‑ where governance is defined.  We have to see that finally our algorithms, procedures and extrackses are in line with such conditions.  Multiple representations that is also too much to go into details.  That is the way I kept that also for reading for your end for download.  Let's short well touch on pragmatics, process models.  We have web compositions, workflows, action models, behavior models and events and that is where we say an increased availability of business process execution data combined with advances of artificial intelligence has laid the ground for the emergence of information systems with execution flows that are not really determined.  Adages do not require changes of software applications and improvements of opportunities are autonomously discovered and enabled on the fly.  That kind of complexity is really something new which needs a lot of programs to deal with.  And that is done with Cloud computing situation models processes, standards, clearing houses, quality of service measurements, quality management of information, multiple representations and the synergy that is in summary.  There is timeliness implementation guided by principles of pre‑requisites in societal, national, humanistin and ethical aspects of the future of people implanted.  The aim is coherence and accountability improvements according to the expectations of Information Societies.  The expectations are high.  Expectations of our citizens.  (inaudible) expectations of our colleagues.  Expectation of our citizens that we are working for.  You may join sustainability information initiative under SUSIN.net.  Join us for the short presentation.  I thank you for your attention and get in contact.  Here you see theling of the presentation that will be ‑‑ that you can download.  We also send that in the chat for those who are online.  Thank you very much for this opportunity.

>> YU Chen:  Thank you.  (?) they pose challenges for the instrument information.  Our next speaker is professor Li Yan.  The topic is web 2.5 and sponge metaverse, a converged (?).  Professor, please.  Is Li here?

>> Hello?  Can you hear me?

>> YU Chen:  Yes, yes.  I can Hur.

>> Li Yan:  Let me share my sliced.  Good morning and good afternoon for my friends in Europe, Africa and Shanghai.  It is my great pleasure today to share a certain news of scholars from Singapore.  So thank you very much for professor Kremers sharing and I am sharing from the business course.  My sharing will be more from a business perspective.  So today's topic, my topic is the web 2.5 for responsible and sustainable metaverse.  Well, we present this perspective, we present this topic from a technology convergence perspective.  So first, what is metaverse?  Well, metaverse has been discussed quite massively and, you know, if we trace that metaverse, we will find that early edition of the definition is from a novel science fix.  So in which it is mentioned that, you know, there is such eye thing called a digital word which is a parallel digital word of the existing real one.  And next slide.

Well, in this, of course, in China, right, or in the Chinese society, people have a very different perspective to understand what is metaverse here?  We don't go that part.  We don't go that.  The thing is recently, for example, professor Kevin Kelly proposed a new idea, which is called mirrored world.  It is focused on augmentd reality and things like that.  And today, instead of reality, you know, we find a certain new technology of neutrality of emerged.  For example, augmented neutrality and extended neutrality.  So the real work and the virtual work to some extent today.  Technology may help us to get both sides connected.  We don't really know how because it is a little bit too fixal of future, but we realize that the opportunities that this parallel virtual world can be a part of our reality or real world.  Then metaverse.  Metaverse in terms of the technology it is ‑‑ or has been already (?) as our ecosystem in which we find almost all of the elements of a real society even though it is virtual in which we find all elements which is social oriented and also business oriented.  Now also business Orient and the function from a technology perspective, the function is mature.  Then let's take a look of today's even the society is preparing for future.  If today we ask some professionals what is today's money, the answer will not be so traditional.  This is the definition of bank of international settlements new definition of today's money, in which we will find (?) and NFPs and digital central bank and the Singapore digital run which are focused on the digital currencies and also in Singapore, we have a project to open this is a wholesale international settlement focus the digital.  This is the money today.  If we turn back five years, nobody seriously can conceive ideas like this.  So new mega trend is emerging now.  In the virtual world and preparing us for the virtual world.  Now the question:  We have money defined by international bang of international settlement.  Then in the metaverse from a business perspective, things that are virtual reality, what will be virtual money?  We don't really know.  We may not know for a certain while.  Right?

[Laughter]

However, we see evolutions.  We see evolutions.  For example, Nvidia is ‑‑ they define as the metaversing of metaverse or the manner of all metaverse.  And they launched a service, of course.  They have theoretical.  They have their theoretical brandings.  So today, of course, the journal of fixd functional reality because of the rise of metaverse.  Today the early issues of journal of fictional reality turns into antiques.  You can find those early editions.  Very expensive in Amazon or some other antique market.  We have established the background ‑‑ not background, we also the condition of metaverse.  Okay.  Metaverse.  Omni verse defined as metaverse of metaverse and we realized leading mega phones including a Pepsi cola, including those traditionallily not necessarily that arrange (?).  They're trying to mirror the company in the so called.  Microsoft is doing office management.  For that we can easily understand; however, we have many, many answers, traditional companies trying to establish their so‑called digital twins in metaverse; however, we have so many metaverses.  So we must need a hub to connect all of them.  This is the mission of Nvidia.  Hardware company today, they are saying they are technology and think tech and what data company.  Interestingly, we see a vetta verse is very much web‑free base and traditional so called digital economy of web tool base.  Here we don't have time to try to illustrate the difference of web tool and web 3.  But one thing which is quite clear, so web tool are dominated by large firms, business firms or organizations which are centralized, especially centralized in terms of governance and decision making; however, web 3 is more if we can with more democracy, with more shared responsibility and decision making power.  We will see consensus space of all participants of the web.  Then however, very, very clearly we realized our society, our way to organize our people, our way to organize our people work together, live together for example companies, societies, social structures are not yet ready for the early version of that technology and its implication, which means a lot of those scenario of applications not really there.

[Laughter]

Not yet there I will say; however, however, metaverse becomes not just a virtual world.  It will be we ‑‑ we expect another layer of our existing physical work and many, many governments, for example, government of Singapore and China, government of Japan are working on it.  And here at lost in Singapore and in China, we see great potential to create new jobs.  So that's why we say a sustainable and responsive metaverse or metaverse policy will be so important for the new future, not the far future.  And so however, we propose things, social structure, corporate structure, right?  They're not yet ready, not yet ready for the new technology.  That's the reason why we propose a convergence perspective of web 2.5 understanding of metaverse.  So in web sphere, we still need a regulation.  We can hardly make it fully decentralized.  Regulation is a part of security instead of only using technology to protect the security of data privacy of the system.  Also a liquidities and price actions are only favorable to those today.  Now, it's only favorable for those who are already in the industry, not necessarily for everybody as it is mentioned that there theoretically with the technology.  Right?

At the same time, web 2 companies are powerful and have deep pockets and they realize the potential.  So they will invest and let's try to make them together.  Let's try to put them together so that we propose a 2.5 kind of centralized to some extent centralize governance and decentralize the operation.  This is also the logic that's been applied in Singapore.  The digital dollar and centralized.  Centralized governance and decentralize the operation with blockchain technology.  Same thing of the digitalized, digital Chinese (?).  But centralized the governance, decentralize the operational.

So in summary, since we only have 10 minutes, in summary, web 3 is moving to web 2.  This is for pragmatic purpose not saying technology is reversely evolving.  But practically or pragmatically web 3 is a little bit still way too advanced and the structure cannot fully support.  And not yet ready.  We haven't figured out a way to fully apply, for example, a decentralized autonomous organization really, really for business to operate it.  So, of course, theoretically, we hope that in the near future, we may experiment.  Okay.  So at this moment, people say web 3 very inclusive.  But so far IT literacy is a huge challenge and when we say web 3 is good for inclusion for unbanked for those in undeveloped countries, but hardware is a problem.  Then what the IP literacy we have far, we have long way to go.  We have a long way to go.  So it is not so inclusive as we imagined in our textbook.  And also risks in terms of those web 3 or metaverse company form the risk and at least technologies; however, not yet with a list of social scientists and not yet with elites of business work.  And that's the reason why 2.5 may be more realistic, may be more fruitful for us to apply now and to push the evolution to web 3or a real future metaverse.  And when we say that, we're not ‑‑ when we're saying society is not yet ready and we need a web 2.5 kind of convergence implementation of web 3 or metaverse; however, we can hardly make the gross potential of this thing.  And with ethical governance, with a sustainable and socially responsible development as a foundation, we hope and sincerely we hope new technology can once again push the evolution of human being.  That's my sharing from Singapore representing some thoughts of Singaporean scholars.  This is not only my thing, but thank you very much for hearing.

>> YU Chen:  Thank you for the explanation of 2.5.  Now let's move on to the third speaker.  The third speaker is professor is.  Her topic is reshaping the concept of digital security.  Let's welcome her presentation.  Hi.

>> Hey, hello.  Hello?  Yes.  Sorry.  Ah, I think the sharing doesn't allow me to share my screen.  Okay.

>> What can I do?  And Psyche E.

>> Wen Sun:  I cannot share my screen right now.

>> Excuse me?

>> Wen Sun:  Okay.  It's working now.  Okay.  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Thank you for the introduction.  I'm very honored to deliver our talk today about trusted metaverse and reshaping the data security.  Soon from poly technical university.  It is very exciting and a hard topic where they can closely integrate a virtual world and a real world in many aspects in economic just talk about the social system, production, identity system and allow the users to participate and add and produce conference and transfer their own digital eyesights.  It can actually give us a lifelike experiences much more immersive than ever before.  And it can give us equal access to a lot of contents and the rules in metaverse and it can create new economic value and make better collaboration across for people across religions and different countries.

Thanks to all these benefits, metaverse can bring to us and can find a promising applications of the mostly still under development like the video game, commercialization, education, manufacturing, tourism, house care and entertainment.

Just like (?), although we are ready to have all the benefits that metaverse can bring to us, we have to handle the right potential.  They also bring to us that we have a lot of new data types that could ‑‑ we have the digital identity.  We have to take care of the privacy of the people.  This is also very, very challenging for nowadays and then we have to make ‑‑ we have to take care of the networks.  A lot of such things.

So the data security actually the concept of the data security has also involved from the first communication in encryption computers to information security to the nowadays the cyberspace security for the metaverse I think is a wholistic security that will include a lot of aspects that include AI, AI Security, IoT Security, Cloud Communication, big data and all of this sum up the data security in the metaverse.

So digital space in metaverse has its own intrinsic characteristics.  It has to be sustainability for our topics of our workshop today.  It has been real time.  It has compatible with a lot of other systems and it has to be connectible and creativity.

So correspondingly, the digital security in metaverse has also met unprecedented challenges that we have to make the metaverse.  We have to make the digital security to be situation aware for communication protection.  We have to manage the diverse access and diverse security certification, equipment protection, privacy protection, data protection and the added security and also the physical security.  So I think very security problem actually cover diverse errors and diverse NGTs nowadays.

So from technology because I'm from the engineering and cybersecurity, also discuss how to protect a digital security in metaverse.  We have discussed the possibility that maybe use blockchain for metaverse.  Blockchain make sure the decentralizing of digital assets and can make the digital transfer safely.  Yeah.  And to make the management and the trading and authentication verification of metaverse to be decentralized and safe for metaverse.

Blockchain actually can make identity management data integrity, data interoperability and ensure the quality of data, data privacy and security and the security sharing in metaverse.

Just give an example.  We have made a work about blockchain.  I think there is a tackle.  Yeah.  We have made a word about discussing using for the metaverse security and the privacy.  Users can ‑‑ that can be metaverse users and IoT devices they can register to blockchain with data profile and around the local data and the blockchain can recall and (?) the data in very fine models and make sure the data assets and the assets updates and the transfer to be safely made among the ‑‑ all the entities.  And the benefits is to keep it decentralized as now to centralize.  So it can avoid the point failure and it can keep consistency and it actually can make metaverse to evolutionary with all the digital wings and the fictions in the metaverse.

So, ah, of course there are a lot of challenges like how actually how we support the interoperability among the data and the blockchain for the metaverse and how to improve the energy efficiency and sustainability at the same time that we can achieve a secure metaverse.  Yeah.

Thank you, thank you.  I think that's all for my talk.  Thanks very much for your listening.

>> Hi, syke.  Can you unmute?

>> Hi.

>> Hi.  Can you allow me to use video?  Just turn it off.  I'm not able to hit it back.  Okay.  Great.  So thank you.  Thank you for ‑‑ thank you to professor for sharing metaverse.  Our first speaker is professor Daisy SELEMATSELA.  Sorry.  Your name is a bit difficult for me to pronounce.  And he's ‑‑ sorry.  And their topic is advancing to open Chair, South Africa ‑‑ south African in the library perspective.  Let's welcome.  Hi.  Daisy?  Professor Daisy, are you here?  Professor ‑‑

>> DAISY SELEMATSELA:  Right, Dr. LASARA, you can start your presentation now.  So it is quite difficult to have a joint workshop online.  Lots of technical problems.  So I'm here.  Can you ‑‑ can you give us some ‑‑ sorry.  Some technical issues here.

>> Hello, sir.

>> YU Chen:  Thank you.  Sure.  Take your time.

>> Can you all see?

>> YU Chen:  Yeah.  Sure.  At least I can see your presentation.  Good morning, colleagues.  Can I go ahead?

>> Please switch to presentation mode.

>> Hello.  Can I go ahead?

>> Please go ahead.

>> Please, please, please.

>> Right.  Thank you, colleagues.  My name is Los Angelesaro.  I'm from the University of prettieria.  I'm going to talk about how we are advancing SDgs through open access repositories and open journal systems in the South African academia.  And as a librarian, it's a privilege to share with you some of the practical things that you are implementing in terms of, um, are daring to the metaverse that we foresee happening with actualization of knowledge platforms and also interacting with the population.  It's a project that my university is hosting.  We have a professor who has been tasked by the government to ensure that the South African SDG hub is active and collecting knowledger outputs from the various repositories in the country.

So the objectives is provide policymakers with access and to education universities and also in this project, it's a partnership between the invest of operatorria library and also higher education institutions and other agencies in the country.  We have mentioned significance the national (?), access, taxon onomy, data, quality and structured technical and also as a hub, this is coordinated by a multi‑disciplinary team.  So the way we have structured the hub is basically to address issues that knowledge should be actually be available for policy making and other interactions that it may be required for.  So this is ‑‑ we realize that there was a distance between policymakers and the research that is generated in universities.  So the academic is related across repositories would then be able to reach the policymakers or any other endeavor that is required for knowledge creation and dissemination.

So the South African hub overview we classify through the national language processing and also we serve a classification overlay that imports an index, the various knowledge as they are stuck in the office system.  So far the statistics that we have generated a total number of row posser toys ‑‑ repositories and this also excludes other outside of South Africa, but that we think may be generating some South African contextual knowledge.  Number of articles, metadata included is almost 210,000.  The repository is 85% of which it also has almost 12 SDGs that we have targeted.  And that's the link to the hub.  And the technical features why we use national ‑‑ a natural language processing refers to the branch of computer science and more specifically to the branch of Artificial Intelligence or the consent of giving computers the 80 to understand text and spoken with in much the same way human beings can.  Why do we use classification over traditional research that denies on making letters.  And the bed rock, we have a bed and embedding.  So the hub will plop them together.  There is processing today.  Technical features:  Harvest, large scale open access repositories.  We are harvesting 38 repositories from south Apredictiona and other around the globe.  Approximately 210 articles have so far been harvested.  Each repository is unique.  The harvester is continuously improved and the challenge so far is metadata because we haven't trained all repositories merged to a certain standard.  So it's libraries.  This is what we're going to be impacting on to support the endeavors of the hub.  So like I said, the protocol we use the open access agenda in South Africa to address some of the harvesting of content from higher education in the university.  So basically this ensures whatever is met and harvested in today.  (background noise)

So how the libraries are managing, we established a library to develop workflows for digital curation of flow repository content.  This is some of the things that we are putting in place.  So digitalization, digital curation, information literacy, digital scholarship, open scholarship and therefore, the discovery of services.  So if we ‑‑ and metadata in future or records would be easily accessible.  So this is how we envisioned our infrastructure for all south African repositories.  Currently our repositories are working independently and therefore, the metadata was not easy to harvest.  So going for the future, the next generational repository we're going to develop unique features that will be global and ensure they can then be able to harvest all the content in the same way across all repositories.  So this is just an illustration of how things will be in terms of interoperability and the persistent layers that we foresee happening, et cetera.  So all the open access processees will be in place and libraries will then ensure that whatever they're generating or curating should then be harvestable based on toxonomy we will apply to regards to SDGin taxonomy.  17 SDGs.

So in South Africa, a majority of our repositories use this place, which is globally used and also for the open journal systems.  Majority of the universities are starting to enhance as a platform to publish some of the local journal articles.  So based on this, the indexing terminology will be to use the SD 17 SDGs of what we have already curated.  So we are going also to do interspective curation to enhance the data site that all the previous old outputs that speaks to all SDGs will be reclassified and indexed for the future.

So this is basically the discussion on this presentation and, um, my colleague Dr. Daisy SELEMATSELA will be part of this platform for the question and answer session.  Thank you.

>> YU Chen:  Thank you, Mr. LAczares for the presentation on the (?) question libraries.  We have the last speaker.  Professor Ricardo.  His topic is about the importance of responsible and sustainable metaverse in education.  Let's welcome professor Ricardo from Mexico.

>> RICARDO ISRAEL ROBLES PELAYO:  Thank you very much.  I will try to share my presentation.  Yeah.

>> YU Chen:  So that means ‑‑ yeah.

>> RICARDO ISRAEL ROBLES PELAYO:  Can you see it?

>> YU Chen:  Yeah.

>> RICARDO ISRAEL ROBLES PELAYO:  Let's start.  Good night, good morning, good afternoon to everyone.  I appreciate the invitaition to the Internet governance forum for my colleagues and friends from China, from Singapore, for Germany, for South Africa, for all over the world and colleagues and this table.  I will introduce myself.  My name is Ricardo Israel Robles PELAYO.

On this occasion, I'm going to talk about the importance of the responsible and sustainable metaverse in legal education.  So I will go to the basics to the classroom if you allow me because in my privacy participation it talks about importance of including the different tech no logical tools created to and thanks to the internet to continuing the education in different fields and levels.

At this time, I will talk about the importance of using information technologies responsible mainly the metaverse in legal education.  So subsequently of the advantage and disadvantage of metaverse in legal education and finally, I will talk about the importance of the sustainable of the metaverse to increase the education quality inside and outside the classroom.

Using many time of the technology tools in education and matters applies a constant spont for all of us to participate in the academic world.  So we must be aware for the full aspects.  We started our investigations from the information from the Internet.  We must distinguish between scientific news and fake news.  On the other hand, we have bad habits that we continue to eradicate on some levels.  Trust me.  Students keep making these kinds of mistakes.  It is also our responsibility as a university professor to encourage his students and other people involved in education to create a reading avid through eBooks taking advantage of the easy and speak of the online application and the affordable costs.  The corporation of the learning management system in the different educational institutions is that the tools for each level has been an excellent option for academic development of the students and the constant supervision of the professors.  As I mentioned, the last main World Summit of information in 2022 the adaptation and incorporation of social media for entertainment to education has contribute order to the education of field more and more colleagues use social networks such as Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and educational tool that this is the accessible and accepted by the students.  The education application for taking advantage of electronic devices availability and efficiently.  They're easy to use and are different alternatives for professors and students.  In my participation in the IGF 2018 in Berlin, I expressed importance of taking advantage of big data to accumulate and store generation from acquisition of knowledge.  On the other hand, analytics is an effective tool for processing and analyzing and reporting information from that to help create the strategies in education.  Both digital instruments can be effective options for public educations, policies and contributing to increase education of colleagues.  Artificial Intelligence predicts the future situations and makes decisions that will help us ask Mr. Gong.  They must include in the education.  In the case of augmented reality and professors and students come live experience through visual and auditor sense the different professional scenarios where they can apply their knowledge and acquire significant learning.  However, we must observe the following disadvantage and we don't use metaverse responsibly.  It can affect productivity and access to the legal education environment.  The lack of insufficient technology structure and the educational institutions for undeveloped countries will not create sufficient academic content to use as part of the argument augmented reality.  The students lost interest in learning tool and continue to have perception that augment the reality only works in games containing storm networks.  Many professor remain except about the learning about the immersive and multi‑sensory environment and for the perception between the neutral and the real world.  Therefore, they transmit and generate security among the students about the effectiveness of this teaching method.

Another aspect to consider is the lack of feature training for the creation of legal z and academic content.  They use the metaverse according to the contents.  In addition, professors and students at public university do not have sufficient economical or familiar resources to implement technological tools and as students who have economical financial resources run the risk of staying longer in reality.  It can generate the loss of the notion and augmented reality in the metaverse.

One of the representative examples is a website called second life.  Considered from inception as multi‑user massive online role‑playing game platform and part of the entertainment programs.  Now, this kind of platform is using around the world in different universities to include the education in this metaverse world.

Now I will talk about the advantage of using metaverse in legal education.  It helps us to carry out, bury our cases and bling those closer to reality created and controlled by the professor for a better understanding of the students.  It's also help us to reconstruct the historicalling facts that can be presented in the later controversy by presenting evidence in the simulated trail.  In addition, it helps us to develop forensic skills for students before they are in the workplace making the great number of errors.  It also prepares for video trailness where the (inaudible) are in different places and the judge is in different parts of the world.

As we observe, tech no logical tools have been constantly developed and implemented and are a great solution to our phenomena that occurs in the manner.  Augmented reality is a great support that allows to create complexary and special skills between those established by the academic theory and those obtained to the professional practice in the real world.  In other words, metaverse is the link between the theory and the practice.

Before finishing, I invite to you work together in the next IGA efforts to create a responsible and sustainable metaverse in economical, social and educational aspects among others.  This is a great opportunity for us to learn about you.  Since I observema you have the knowledge of the technical manner and the use of the political instruments in your countries, that would be a good idea to share all this kind of information to us that we are preparing for this next world that is now with us.  So thank you very much for this invitation and I send you my (?) for all of us.

>> YU Chen:  Ricardo, the information knowledge.  So I think now is ‑‑ because this is a roundtable.  Now we our open discussion.  Yeah.  Sure.  Yes, yes, yes.

>> It's okay for me?  Thank you very much.

>> The first question is:  What do you think about when building an Eco logical, responsible, sustainable networks among these challenges.  What has a technical challenge so maybe, Ricardo, from you.

>> RICARDO ISRAEL ROBLES PELAYO:  Okay.  I would like to ‑‑ I would like to respond to the next question, review the mind about legal matters.

>> Okay.  This is also ‑‑ okay.

>> Okay.  Perfect.

>> RICARDO ISRAEL ROBLES PELAYO:  Okay.  Perfect.  As I said before, we can share a breach of communication and exchange of information and unfortunately, my country, there are not policies to increase the education quality.  So assign her from my colleagues in singa or, they are realized for this government solution.  So I would like to know how can we create this legal instrument in my countries?  So this is very important for us that create first the legal instruments and then incorporate all this knowledge in our laws, in our codes.  We can share that information also from point of view.Y is fors it's a very good opportunity to be here and I am learning a lot and I they're shared this armation.  That's why we like to start.  First the political and the legal framework and then continue to work together with all your ‑‑ my colleagues around the world.  So thank you very much.

>> Thank you very much.  So Mr. Kremers, would you please share some fears about my question?

>> Yeah.  Thank you for such good commission because it seems, and I ‑‑ let us not be mentioned to the success that is really not so easy to do as a term of governance.  How do we set up experiments of governance?  What is existing governance in certain cities, universities, countries, um, and so on.  And because that would kind of go to the point where do we have all of society aspect for those who is the latest part of application is really meant ‑‑ it's not meant for the experts.  It's meant for our citizens and are involved.  And on this way, that is why I support the work of Ricardo very much is it's not only a thing that applying these methodologies in education but also story me the question would be:  Are the students that you educate able to conceive what is a problem with the universe, with metaverse.  To see the issues that are arising, transparency, anything that doesn't fit our regular educations, what do we do for new regulations.  The society would say we're all happy with the thing.  It is a legal framework.  We need people and educating the students to support this technology.

>> Thank you.  Thank you.  Can you say something?

>> Thank you 84 the question.  Thank you, my colleagues.  My experience in Vicka move.  Because on the one thing, relatively ‑‑ many times in the word, for example, the Mexico city app.  If we compare the population, even a small town.  On the other thousand, today, becoming one of the leading of hub.  For us, education wise, the government fully realized those so called e merging cutting engages ‑‑ cutting education technologies.  For this new technology, actually, it is not a technology.  It's a combination of comprehensive ‑‑ the government has a very strong understanding which is regulation cannot go ahead of implementation.  Therefore, for example, even finance area.  Singapore, we don't have the venture bank.  It is a monetary authority of Singapore, which is central bank plus regulations.  They created a box ‑‑ they caught it.  So for those new ‑‑ so for those new technology, you can apply to be tested in Singapore with real customer.  They will invite a high wells customer to participate in pistons and those you new technologies.  And at the same time, government systematically, systematically help universities and colleges to develop new crosses and connected with the banking industry.  So in Singapore, we have a very comprehensive thinking in which you can find all 400 of those leading banks.  I just gave ‑‑ one thing is also very important, which is also unique that in Singapore, not like in many other cities, in Singapore, we complete with global talents.  So there is no such a thing called local.  We complete with global talents.  We may have create future.  That's the reason why today for metaverse life and we can ‑‑ we can do some arguing.  Singapore is one at the center in terms of technology, in terms of venture capital and in terms of education.  That is my sharing.

>> Mr. Lazarus?

>> I wanted to talk.

>> Yes.

>> But then the video ‑‑ my video is not coming up.  Okay.  Thank you.  For my perspective and especially looking at my institution, we have been discussing the issues around metaverse and what are the indications like what Ricardo highlighted and I think it's important that we're all at knowledge and carting the issue about the legality.  My concern is there are HR elements.  Elements that are going to transform and change.  And the issue is we are ready and how do we get ourselves ready for the new roles that we're going to assume and the jobs that are going to unfold.  And the second element would be technology.  How are we embracing technologies and ensuring how we're going especially ask in the practice where it was supporting the ‑‑ how do we use technologies and spaces called mark up spaces where students come and learn and sit and read.  How do we use the spaces and make sure they're quite engaging and then going back to say how do we equip ourselves and transform yourselves for the new world of web when it comes to human resources.  The way we do things is changing already.  We were talking about crypto.  We have migrated from crypto and now we're talking about what the metal risk is going to do in education.  Developing hubs in our universities, for example where students can go in and learn and see this plethora of new innovations.  Yeah.  That's my take from our side inless rows.

>> Thank you, thank you.  You have very much.  How do you use the policy environment.  Third seconds.  30 seconds.  How to view the policy framework.  Please.  Professor, are you here?

>> yes.  Actually, that's a serious challenge to the international and the national CEO to build illegal framework because on the one side, we need technical innovation of metavet.  So we have to avoid and proper regulation.  But on the of the hand, we have identify the risks that may or will brought about by those new technologies.  In that case, a new concept which is called age old governance is proposed by some professor.  Personally I really don't know how to reach an age of government.  So, ah, I do consider the recommendations of ues in necessaryco on Artificial Intelligence.  That's to set eye torn stone starting from ethicalmenticals.  So I think that could be the 50 step for us to use to governmenternance the development of met on verse.  So that's my view.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.

>> Mr. Kremers.

>> HORST KREMERS:  Of course, it would have a broad participation of those involved.  Not only typical sciences, but also the legal aspects to be dealt with.  That is near society and society has to understand that we have to go into society because it is for them and they're involved.  They are attractive.  Some have critics and we have to build a possibility to share potential positive things and the critics and then go on and see that policy making is a rather long‑term permanent in steps to see in phases.  A row renewed policy every 1 year, 2 year the more innovative technology, the more frequent the policy needs to be updated.  I think some unite the organization would be fine.  Of course, it had to take into account what is already on the table nationally or transnationally.

>> Thank you.  Thank you very much.  Professor Daisy.

>> DAISY SELEMATSELA:  I can follow up.  What's important is the uptake and how we can manage the prince mels of matta verse.  When we talk about open signs, the big ‑‑ how do we map together and it's not in isolation and I think that's going to be the legal header that we need to deal with.  Secondly, would be the political will and buying from or institutions.  How funds are being disfor usd and grounds to make sure we had more done and research in this area.  Thank you.

>> Thank you, Senator.

>> I do agree.  I think the problem that we face, at least in Mexico, is that we are creating since all the technological instruments are like two, three steps ahead.  It's very difficult for our progress in Parliament to understand what happened in this.  If we are now concerning for blockchain and all kind of this financial instruments, then I think our government is a few things.  They think the Mota verse is a kind of ‑‑ metaverse is kind of a movie from Holly word and they don't understand what is going on in this case.  We have to concentrate the tech no logical problems that are always ahead of us we have to prepare for that.  So I think it's a huge problem in my country.

>> Thank you.  I want to (inaudible) a moderator.

>> Yes.  Hello.  We are now running gate.  So so maybe we can come to a closure?

>> I want to express our most profounded appreciation to all experts.  There was an excellent presentation.  She was online and on site participants for their questions and, of course, two more odd rater.  Help him.  The network is still enest stage and all opportunities and governance issues (inaudible).  Therefore, I cannot be soft simply by a workshop or a discussion.  This workshop is not the end about establishing co‑operation mechanisms between multistakeholders to address issues of networks.  It needs our effort to have a safe and reliable network.  Thank you very much.  It's time to close the session.  I'm sorry for going over a couple minutes.  Thank you very much.