The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> MODERATOR: Hello. Check. Check. May I suggest we wait five minutes or should we get started? Start?
Okay. We'll start now. Good morning everyone. Good morning. Distinguished panelists, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to our session titled "her data, her policies: Towards a gender inclusive data future."
So on behalf of the African Union Development Agency, I'm honoured to welcome here today for the session, which is actually continuity of a discussion we started at the African IGF.
So the African Union Development Agency is mandated to support the socioeconomic development of African countries. Part is this year we have been working on supporting the domestication of the data policy framework. Because we do support the implementation of policies and strategies defined at the African union level. So we are committed to supporting the implementation, as we just said, of the African union that was adopted in 2022.
We are working to help the member state to develop robust national strategies and national data policies and build capacity, in general, within the governance and specifically with the data protection alternatives.
As we work to build the data economy across the continent, we must be acutely aware of the persistent gender digital divides. We have been hearing from the beginning of the forum on Sunday. And the gender gap that exists within the data governance landscape. So these gaps may pose a significant barrier to what we're trying to achieve to the full participation of our women and marginalized groups in the digital economy.
So this session will explore the importance of the approach. We must ensure the unique needs of women, girls, and marginalized communities are recognised and met. This requires the intentional application of the gender lens in the implementation of the AU and the policy framework, and the development of national data strategies and policies.
So we have we have a distinguished panel onsite and online. My name is Christelle Onana. I work for the African Union Development Agency. I'm a Senior Policy Analyst, and I also am in the digitalized unit. We have online Mrs. sue Suzanne El Aka baou. And we have victor Asila.
>> VICTOR ASILA: Hi. Thank you.
>> MODERATOR: We have the director of research and policy. We do have madam imular Ghanda [?] and to close the loop, we have Mr. OSa Gagia a U.S. Riyadh representative. Welcome to all of you.
I think we'll start the discussion straight. I would like you, starting with the speakers online, to introduce yourselves. Share with us in two minutes, briefly, what you do that is relevant to our topic today. Starting with Ms. Suzanne.
>> SUZANNE EL AKABAOUI: Hello everyone.
As part of the creation of a legal context that is favorable for digital transformation. .
>> MODERATOR: Thank you. Victor.
>> VICTOR ASILA: Good morning. I work for a telecommunications company as a lead data scientist. So on a day to day basis, my work builds data products using scientific methods that give insights to the business, so that the business can work effectively.
It's a pleasure being here. And I'm glad to be part of the panel.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you, Victor. Bonita.
>> PARTICIPANT: Good morning everyone. I work in Uganda. We work at the intersection of data, design, and technology to ensure that experiences needs of women are amplified in tech and data and technology of our role on the African continent. Thank you.
>> PARTICIPANT: Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. Depending on where you're joining us from the world. I'm from Ghana. I'm here as an African youth Ambassador on this panel.
The topic is very nuanced one. And youth being the central core of this conversation forming or using the internet, we hope to be a part of the discussion where we get to contribute. Excited to be here and hope to learn more. Thank you very much.
>> PARTICIPANT: Good morning to you all. I'm head of engagement at Meta. And my role, really, is to ensure that we have strategies in place to ensure that, you know, whenever we are building our products or our policies, we engage externally. We talk to people who use our products. We talk to experts. We talk to people who are interested in the issues that we are dealing with. So that's the team I work on. And I'm, you know, this is an important topic. And thank you so much for including us. I'm looking forward to having this discussion and learning from everyone on the panel.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. I think now that we know who we are in the room, we can kick off with the discussion.
So we'll start with Bonita. With the first question. So what, for you, is a gender inclusive data future? Specifically for Africa? And how can it be achieved?
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you so much, Christelle Onana. So gender inclusive data is one that is representative of all genders. It also is representative of the intersecting identities. By intersecting identities, I mean, like, ethnicity, race, their age, educational level, socioeconomic status, geographical location, so that everyone is captured and no one is left behind. Because intersection reveals injustices in equalities and so on and so forth.
And the other one on a gender inclusive data is one that actively identifies biases and then addresses them. There are several biases in data, but, also, in technology. For instance, these bias in algorithms. I remember this was talked about on Monday in the Plenary session. The bias in data. That can make data skewed or unevenly distributed. So even the outcomes of such data that has bias will also be unevenly distributed. And so this also affects the other processes that come after the data where such data will be used. For instance, in decision making. It will also be uneven. And so on and so forth. So these are biases in designing technologies, for instance. For instance, bias in languages. you know, not supporting diverse languages. Dialects on the African content which limits accessibility. and the other one about gender inclusive data is one that ensures safety and privacy. Generally protecting individuals from harm and exploitation associated to data misuse. But, also, the biases that come from the data.
The other one is gender inclusive data should be one that issues agency and ownership in terms of allowing individuals and communities to have control over their data in the way they're controlling to how the data is collected. How the data is stored. How the data is used. If there are any changes that need to be made to the data, for instance. They are involved. So generally, like, citizens but speaking in the data but especially on the gender side and other marginalized communities. And so how can this be achieved?
So, one, is to transform no. One is to main stream gender into a national statistics, in terms of learning and research. Because mainstreaming helps to assess gender data collection and identify gaps relating to missing agenda related indicators. So mainstreaming is one. And the other one is transforming data collection processes through capacity building. For instance, in capacity building on designing data collection tools to be able to capture data in all different gender diversities. And then training data collectors and researchers to understand what gender inclusivity is. Because not everyone may be aware or have that kind of training.
And then, again, transforming data collection and capacity building. There are researchers and other stakeholders like policy makers with the skills to identify and mitigate the biases that I already talked about.
And the other one is to involve and engage diverse communities in designing and implementing data initiatives. For instance, collaborating with women and organizations to align goals and processes of initiatives. And the other one is to share good practices on collecting and reporting gender data. So as to share the notions and impact of excellence.
So this is very good. Initiating good practices. What are the different stakeholders doing in terms of gender inclusive data initiatives. So that we all can be able to learn from each other. And then, also, to connect gender data to gender equality agendas. Because gender equality agendas, ideally, are based on facts. And the facts come from the data that is connected. Whether it is text data. So connecting this to gender data, to gender equality agendas is very important. And then investing in research and innovation. Funding interdisciplinary research for the intersection of gender, data, and technology. These are so important. And, also, sustaining this funding in terms of upskilling that I already talked about.
Funding to maintain collaboration and so on. And so forth. Yeah.
>> MODERATOR: Maybe I should have interrupted you earlier. Because you gave quite a lot of insight towards the answer we were expecting.
But it will also be good give the responsibilities of suggest, as you mentioned. You mentioned quite a lot, to answer the question. What I notice is you mentioned the agenda inclusive data involving the representation within the design, the algorithms, privacy, the agency, and ownership of the communities and the individual. And then lately, you were giving the answer to the how can it it can be achieved. Yeah. Mostly about involving the communities. Good practice sharing, investment into research. I think we'll leave it there. We need to digest it and we'll move to the next speaker. Ms. Suzanne.
What is our African government doing currently to ensure that women and marginalized groups have control over the data in a way that respect privacy and agency?
>> SUZANNE: Thank you very much for allowing me to have a word about this matter. I think mainly the work that is being done in African countries revolves around trying to have inclusive policies and regulations. It's important to develop gender inclusive policies, and enforce these policies that would expressly address the needs and rights of women and marginalized groups. These policies should include ensuring data protection laws are inclusive and consider unique vulnerability of these groups.
A very important principle in this case is the principle of transparency and accountability. Where by regulations should require companies to be transparent about data practices, and hold them accountable for any issues related to misuse of data. In this case, governments should provide for regular audits and impact assessments to ensure compliance with the privacy standards.
Another is access to education and literacy. Providing training on digital literacy would empower women and marginalized groups to understand their rights. To practice them. And the implications of data sharing, would include teaching them how to protect the personal data and personal information.
Of course, teaching or encouraging women and marginalized groups to pursue education in careers like science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. These types of education encourage critical thinking, creativity, and problem solving skills. So by having more of these people thinking critically, it will help us, also, implement the laws in a more efficient way.
From the side of the businesses, designing inclusive tech companies should prioritize the development of technologies that are inclusive and assessable. In order to mitigate the impacts of the digital literacy, in certain instances, having systems that in state privacy and personal data protection is important.
So it's important to think during the design and testing phases include personal data protection principles is important.
As mentioned earlier by my colleague, addressing bias is key. So it's important to implement measures to identify and mitigate bias in data sets. Obviously, recently, in the systems, as well. So it's important to use diverse data base and involve marginalized groups in the development process to ensure fair and equitable outcomes.
Community engagement is another important. Whereby governments and tech companies should actively engage with communities to understand the needs and concerns. And this can, obviously, be done through consultations, focus groups, partnerships with local organizations.
The collaboration of Civil Society is important, as well. Because working with LGOs and advocacy groups and other Civil Society organizations can help ensure that the voices of women and marginalized groups are heard and considered in policy making and technology development.
Finally, strengthening personal data protection through data protection laws that are robust and data protection laws that provide strong protection for personal data through the issuance of clear guidelines on how to obtain consent. How to minimize data. And to guarantee the right to access of data where applicable.
The implementation of privacy enhancing technologies is becoming important. Encryption and securing data storage to protect users' data from unauthorized access and misuse is an important aspect, as well.
To give a quick overview of where Egypt stands, in this case. Egypt does recognise the importance of data protection, and it hasn't reduced the law 151 of the year 2020. And the law aims at protecting the personal data and penalize the misuse of personal data. So it is part of the strategic goals and the Egypt vision 2020. And we work on achieving and guaranteeing a gender equal gender equality through the empowerment of women economically, socially, and politically. We do try to give women control over the data. The personal data protection centre has an important projects, in this case. Ensuring that the privacy and the agency over the data are respected.
So generally speaking, it is important that the visions emphasize the importance of creating inclusive digital societies where all citizens, especially women and marginalized groups, can benefit from digital transformation and protection initiatives. Thank you.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much, Suzanne for your lovely elaborated answer. Allow me to follow up with you on a few points you mentioned.
Definitely our member states are working towards data protection authorities in working on enforcing the data protection site of the data. For the communities overall, and I'm sure for the minorities, the marginalized group, for the women, for our girls. You talked about the government that needs to work with the companies to be transparent about it. How does this particularly happen? That's one? How is it enforced, I would like to ask. How do we track inclusive technologies? I mean, practically, how does that work at the national level? What do the government do with the research? The academia? Because you mentioned the data protection authorities. You mentioned the companies, the commercial side of it. You mentioned the Civil Society. What happened at the academia level? And practically through the engagement with the communities have been in the countries, how often yeah. How is it further enforced or implemented? How do we measure the impact? How can we evaluate the impact of such engagement? Thank you.
>> SUZANNE EL AKABAUOI: Thank you for your question. In Egypt, the personal data protection law has established the personal data protection authority. And it has given the authority certain sector of mandates varying from building the capacity of personal data protection officers. And data personal data protection consultants. But it has also provided for them to obtain licenses. In Egypt, it's an important part, it's allowing the Personal Data Protection Centre to review the practices with the tech companies and the, generally speaking, with controllers and processers on personal data management practices. The centre talks about how to handle personal data in a more secure way. And through the licensing process review, the methodologies and the policies and the collection so that we can guarantee that the principles relevant to personal data protection are respected. Such as minimization, et. cetera. So in practice, what happens is through the review, through the licensing process, granting the license process, we get to review with the various stakeholders their practices relevant to the personal data protection laws from a legal perspective. And from a technical perspective.
On the other hand, the Centre has another mandate to raise awareness. So we work very closely with Civil Society, with the private sector, and we try to raise awareness through various events. And this is another aspect of how we get to include all stakeholders.
In the case of issuing policies, guidelines, and up to date policies and guidelines with the developments and technology and the fast pace, we also get to have public consultation on these guidelines. So it gives us an idea about the interests and how the different stakeholders see the implementation of the laws. So that we can implement it in the most efficient ways.
Academia is heavily involved because training data protection officers who are the ones that need to assist the personal data protection in implementing the law in their respective, be it a controller or processer, is through the academia. We're trying to include regulations to personal data protection in various disciplines through academia, as well.
So the Centre has a vast mandates. Vast range of mandates that are, if working together and put together, should allow to mitigate the impacts and have a more inclusive approach in the journey of digital transformation.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Suzanne.
We'll move to the technology side. We'll look at Victor, who works daily on big data and data science. AI and big data analytics are shaping the future. You do a lot of analysis. We get insight from that. What opportunities and what risk do these technologies present for gender inclusive data policies? Looking specifically at the African context for our women, mothers, ourselves, our girls, and the marginalized group.
>> VICTOR ASILA: Yes, thank you.
>> MODERATOR: Maybe before you start. I would like to bring up, if my grandmother was in the room and you were to explain it to her. So we can all understand!
[ Laughter ]
>> VICTOR ASILA: I'll try to be as basic as possible. So, yeah. Having said that, I think it'll be imperative to define what generative AI and data analytics means.
So I'll start with big data. I'll start with big data. So we generally describe big data using what we use describing the volume. The amount of data by data type. And voracity, what we call. So how much, you know, how frequent do we use this data by digital type. Then, thirdly, define it in terms of variety. So what different pieces of data do we generate, you know, within a specific unit of type. So generation the different data sets that can be classified as texts, probably images, sound, video, and what have you.
So I think from a basic perspective, that's how we describe big data. Then analytics is the tools and methodologies that we use to get insights from the data. From the big data that we have generated and collected.
Now what is generative AI? So generative AI is a type that can generate new content. And the new content can be a text, can be a picture, can be a video, or whichever that is possible within the technology. So I think in that sense, my grandmother should be able to understand what generative AI and what big data means.
And I'm moving on to what potential it holds in terms of shaping gender and inclusive data policies. We'll start by opportunities. And I think from a technology point of view, having the ability to generate huge data sets within a unit of time, at a faster rate, and having types of data being collected. Then we have an opportunity, number one, to ensure that we get granular insights. These insights are not just insights for the sake of insights. But insights that are related to gender disparities. Insights that are going to help us identify gender disparities, and give us a glimpse into the areas that need intervention.
So looking at Analysing big data. We have an opportunity to uncover nuanced patterns that relate to gender. So that's the first part. I think we have an opportunity to collect gender specific data. We have an opportunity to analyse the gender specific data to ensure that we uncover the patterns that relate to gender.
Number two, as a practitioner, most of the time, we do help the business using data to kind of tailor specific products that speak to specific appetites for our customers. So we can flip that. I would also use the same technologies to come up with solutions using data that address gender specific related issues. And in doing so, we are going to promote inclusivity. And promote equity.
Now the second opportunity that I look at from a practitioner perspective is that, as practitioners, when we build these models, we use algorithms. And partly these algorithms propagate that we generate by humans. By promulgating these biases, then we, inadvertently, kind of we usually do what we call algorithmic audits. We specifically come up with policies and practices that each data scientist building a model. So part of the checks that we do have is to ensure that the algorithms that we build do not perpetrate biases. And they are fair. And they are equitable.
So from a craft perspective, that's what we do. It's our goal. Also, from our perspective, we try to ensure that the data we use to build these models and algorithms is as diverse as possible.
One thing we usually do is to ensure that data is balanced. So we encourage our data scientists to ensure that the data is balanced and that it's inclusive to all groups of interest. And, also, it does not negatively impact any group.
A opportunity I see is policy development and implementation. Once we have these insights, we can make informed decisions. And, therefore, policy makers will make these decisions. They can live with these insights to craft more effective and inclusive gender policies. There's another niche which is monitoring and evaluation. Since we are collecting timely data, I think we have an opportunity. I believe we cannot, you know, achieve real time kind of monitoring, but we can achieve a near time monitoring. It provides real time feedback to policy makers and enabling them to make adjustments, where needed.
I'll quickly cover the risks. So one risk, that as a practitioner, that I see is on data privacy and security. Whenever you handle gender specific information or data, then that exposes you to, you know, information that, you know, can be used in a negative way. And, therefore, it can fail to it can expose privacy issues of individuals. By exposing their sensitive information. So any breach could have serious implications. Therefore, for the bad actors, they can use that as an opportunity to misuse that data. It could be misinterpreted inadvertently leading to policy that can inadvertently hurt rather than help the gender inclusive agenda.
We also can run into ethical and legal challenges. I've had cases where, you know, some of the companies have been penalized by the regulators because of their biases that, you know, their algorithms do inherently carry. And, also you know, just by doing that, they have failed to adhere to regulatory landscape around data usage and the complexity of AI.
So I think those are the risks and opportunities that I see from a practice perspective. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much, Victor. And maybe Imular has something to add there?
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you so much. Adding to what he said or in general?
>> MODERATOR: In general to what he said?
>> PARTICIPANT: Yeah. Thank you so much. I was writing notes. I know you know how to describe this for, you know, like grandparents. I was writing notes, as well, as you were talking. We all benefited from that.
I will I think just beyond just adding to what he said, I think, obviously, it's important to look at inclusion for products. You know, to look at inclusivity by design. And not just think about it as an afterthought. I thought that was really, you know, that's something that is really great.
But just, I think, adding on to what he said. I think for us as a tech company. You know, when we think through about what inclusion means for us, and just going back to what some of my colleagues have already said. For us you know, diversity and inclusion. For data practices, just, obviously, it starts not only when, you know, when you see the product out there. Inclusion, for us, is a core mission of our company. It defines what we do. And by that, I mean I think let's take a step back. When you think of just products and policies, we are forgetting there are people behind them. So I think some research by policy, as well, it's important for tech companies to even, you know, in doing the hiring practices to actually hire the, you know, people who come from these underrepresented groups.
Rather than having someone sitting somewhere trying to design products for a society that they're not, you know, they're not in. Because lived experiences, I think, are very important. You might read about something. You might, you know, learn about something from books, but I actually having lived experiences is important. So, for us, at Meta, inclusion is at the core of our mission. We hire people, you know, with that in mind. But, also, when you hire someone, and we know these professional development you want to keep them. So making sure they actually stay, you know, in the company. I've been at Meta for eight years now. So, you know, I think privatizing professional development is important.
I'll look at where I work, which is engagement. It's not just outreach. I think for some, it's just for customer outreach. We know stakeholder engagement is about relationship building. Once we talk about relationships, particularly for us, in this part of the world, there is the issue of trust. There is a trust issue for us. Especially in tech companies and people that use our platforms. How do we ensure we build trust? It's not just something being here in the IGF and having the conversation we build trust. It's a marathon. It's not something that you just, you know, build trust. One thing Suzanne mentioned, we do these, as well, the trust deficit, working with local partners to ensure they are an intermediary for us. We have 400 organizations globally that we work with. And, you know, here. But our inclusive stakeholder engagement strategy is anchored on three things: One, is expertise. By expertise, I know in this room we have some people with Ph.D.s. But for us, expertise, we're also looking at lived experience as a form of expertise. And I think that broadens the people that we talk to. I'm happy to see someone from the Youth Group, and I'm say to him, what is the limit of youth groups? Because we know in some regions, you know, it's as high as you can be. Expertise is one pillar we look at. We also look at transparency. When we're identifying the stakeholders that we are going to talk to about the policy development or product development, we go beyond, you know, in identifying, we go beyond geographical diversity, gender diversity, or even language, or expertise. But we look at it from a comprehensive, you know, from a comprehensive perspective. I liked what Bonita said about intersecting identities. If we just talk about underrepresented groups, is it women? Is it people with different needs? So there are intersecting identities. We can look at where we're engaging.
And the last one would be transparency. It doesn't it's not we can do all these things. Look at people with lived experiences. People with expertise. We can be as inclusive as you think you want to be. If we're not transparent about the work we're doing, and we're not talking about it and, you know, responding to the questions that we receive and sharing as much information in the decisions we're making and sharing information about who we are engaging, why we're engaging with them. What have we gathered from them? Then it's a fruitless exercise. So being transparent about all these things, I think, would be important.
And I think I'll just end there. And let me know if there's anything else. I know it was just anything to add. And I've added a whole
[ Laughter ]
>> MODERATOR: We'll come back to you. Thank you very much, Amelia. Now we'll turn to the young man in the room representing the young voice. So Osie how do you think young people in our society can play [?] a role in shaping a more inclusive data governance ecosystem? Where do we start? Can you share any initiative where you guys have voices and it has successfully influenced policy maker in the data governance landscape.
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you very much. A lot has been said. I picked up some words, "transparent, lived experience, inclusive, expertise" I think we need to start from the conceptions space of policies that we talk about implementation.
Oftentimes, most young people are seen as entitled in the stakeholder engagement or regional policies. When everything has been done, hey, young people, come. But I'm very happy in the discussion we have a young person on the board. Throughout whole process, the design and frameworks, youth voices are there. I think I made a comment on the same topic. They mentioned there was a youth forum, and one young person made a comment which changed the perspective of Parliamentians. In West Africa youth IGF and the Ghana youth IGF. We have been doing amazing things. Ghana IGF we did a hackathon this year. We pushed policy makers. But as I said, from the conception stage to implementation stage. Young people are left out. The implementation process, or legislative process, young people are left out. We're not saying we are representative of or that we know better than our fathers or mothers. No. But we need included.
There's a gap there from the conception stage we haven't had anything. We had good engagement with our Parliamentarians. But we don't know the end game of it. We were not included in the whole process. So the young people in the Africa youth IGF have done incredible work. Okay. That's it. Young people are the core front of our advocacy and mobilisation. We've been effective mobilisers. I think we can be great with lived experience. Conveying the message. Being part of the implementation process.
>> MODERATOR: I'm following up. So I understood that you've been voicing you have been doing great things and there have not been any positive outcome from your engagement or your handovers, which means there is no successful example of what you have worked on that has influenced the policy maker. Is that correct?
>> PARTICIPANT: On the ground level advocacy level, I personally may have worked on projects which are influenced things. But as a collective, it's hard. It's like we are shouting. And across the continent, Africa, a lot of young people feel dejected. They keep saying the same things. On a personal level, I may have some experiences.
>> MODERATOR: Okay. May I follow up by asking, so, what do you recommend. Two to three recommendations, practical, on how we can engage and make sure that your voices are not only heard but acted upon, regarding the issues we are discussing now.
So the policy makers, to the private sector, to the researcher, to us as a development agency. To the partners.
>> PARTICIPANT: Yeah. If you know route, you don't know where you're going, it will lead to nowhere. We need a shared vision. From the conception stage to the implementation, we know where we're going so the young people are involved. We are going here. We are going here. That's how we're going. And, also, system thinking. We need to continuously think. There may be some thoughts from the conceptualization frameworks where we can piece things together. So we can piece things together. So we know we are moving somewhere. Continuously thinking through things. We need to continuously think through things. And continuous learning. I want to say our policy makers, big tech,
[ Audio fading in and out ]
Continuously learning through things. Learning benchmark from other experiences. Where we need to robustly think through the framework where we need to learn from other people to benchmark appropriately. So that's my answer to you. Thank you very much.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you.
I would like to come back to Umula before we come back. We heard you when you were complimenting Victor's answer about how you consider the inclusivity. How you are doing that. I would like to add how is it tailored to the different context the inclusivity that you incorporate into your processes from the beginning. Looking at different perspectives.
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you so much. That's an important question. Before I respond to that, I was writing notes on what he was saying. And, I think, also, you need as much support as possible to get to where they're going. Once there's a shared vision.
In terms of contextualizing our approaches, here's what we do. And it depends on each context. But what is important for us, first of all, is really to ensure that external stakeholders, when we are engaging, are involved right from the beginning. So it's not when we're now going out of them. But actually understanding what are their issues. What is it we need to prioritize? We have the products. We have the, you know, Facebook, Instagram, some of the platforms. What are some issues you're facing in terms of our community standards? Yeah.
So what are those issues? So understanding that and bringing it internally to ensure that we, you know, when we look at our policies, we look at that, you know, from that lens. That's number one.
So ensuring we are prioritizing issues that we hear on the ground that we hear from local participants. The second thing is, actually devising our engagement approach with an understanding of our stakeholders. And by this, I mean not all forms of engagement are, you know, can work with different stakeholders. Zoom there's a Zoom fatigue. Not like company Zoom but there is just engaging virtually. For some, it doesn't work. That's number one. Some prefer face to face. Also understanding language. Because we know, you know, different languages. What we might express in English is not what it is in other languages. So understanding who needs to be in the room, as well. I might be the one working on the issue, but for him to understand maybe I'm not the one who can talk to him about it. Can we do it through policy or other organizations? So understanding that we show our engagement strategies speaks to that.
What I'm trying to say here is, there are processes that we have to put in place before we get to the destination, as we were saying. So many ways, I think, of slicing the cake.
>> MODERATOR: Since you started talking, I was about to say, what have you done in relation to the youth? Talking about that! Can you share with us practically?
>> PARTICIPANT: What we've done with the youth. So, first of all, considering the point that you mentioned from the beginning. Having the vision
>> MODERATOR: Yes. Yes.
>> PARTICIPANT: What have we done with the youth? Quite a number of initiatives. I can start, one around capacity building. Because we also know that for youth to actually contribute meaningfully into our product and policies development, you have to understand the issues. Otherwise just you and me talking will not be as useful. So one of the things we've done is to put resources into capacity building initiatives, like the African Internet Governance School. So making sure that initiatives like that are well supported and well resourced. Also supporting some of the local youth IGFs, as well. Supporting in terms of resources, but also ensuring that we even have some of our internal experts, if you invite them, to some of the events.
The other thing, also, is we talked about recruitment. But, also, even, actually, you know, having programmes where we have some young people working within the company. Also, learning what is happening and ensuring they can bring that, you know, through internships, through placements, as well. To ensure that they can bring some of the things that they learn, you know, externally. We work with some Universities, as well, to support their programmes around tech, you know, degrees or apprenticeships. So quite a few multifaceted ways we're working with the youth.
We also know it's not something we can do by ourselves. We need to work with, you know, governments like madam Suzanne's departments or other organizations who are entrenched in the processes.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. We would like to pause here for now. To open the floor to the participants. On site but online. If we have questions, before we continue. Maybe we'll look online first with our online moderator. Do we have questions?
>> MODERATOR: So we have one question from Gharnai. "Greetings from Afghanistan. Could anyone share a sample of the strategy to draw on it?" Yeah. So I think it's not particularly about the discussion, but maybe of the strategy, like the one we gave in the description. The AU data policy framework and the strategies we're developing. But I'm not sure if tech support can allow him to ask his question.
>> MODERATOR: Maybe we can try to find out with the participant online and then come back to you to have a more accurate question.
So we'll take a question on site. Yes, Melody.
>> AUDIENCE: Thank you. So mine is more of a contribution. I think one of the issues you raised was we want something more practical. And if you are to explain to your grandmother, they understand. And I think when we are talking about a community engagement and capacity building, can you hear me? I'm going to give an example. I don't work for Meta, but I'll give an example. My family lives in rural Zimbabwe, so there is not any form of entertainment at all. So imagine you've been working the field the whole day. You come home, there is no entertainment. But recently when I was talking to my mother, she was telling me that there is a WhatsApp group she joined. Every week they post, like, a chapter of a novel. Then she sits with her daughters. And read the novel! I was thinking that capacity building and community engagement should not be that difficult. It's about finding something to facilitate an engagement with your community. If it means using a WhatsApp platform, for example, to reach out to so many people. And talking about issues of privacy. We're talking about issues of gender inclusion and access to data. That would be one way.
I think something very practical and a way of actually reaching out to the communities. Yes, I don't work for Meta, but I think it's quite relevant. And in context, I find it quite useful, as well.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much, for your contribution, Melody. I think it highlights the need to collaborate. You were talking about a WhatsApp group. It has to be initiated by, maybe, the local community group. The NGO on the ground who will be who will have to work maybe with people like us or the, you know, company. Thank you so much.
Any other questions on site? There is no questions. The men? No questions? Okay.
We come back to our online participant question. Has it been refined? Maybe we'll open it, if you would like to contribute to it, as drafted.
>> MODERATOR: Greetings from Afghanistan. Could anyone share a sample of the strategy to draw on it? Thank you."
>> PARTICIPANT: Is it an engagement strategy or
>> MODERATOR: Just to answer as you understand it. It's quite vague.
>> PARTICIPANT: Okay. I'll respond to it. And from what Melody said. I think to, you know, to draw up a strategy, you have to I think you have to have a clearer picture of what success looks like. What is it you want to do. And then you said sort of working. And the second thing is to know that a strategy is also something that, in my opinion, that you finalize and say "now let me go out there and do what I have laid out." You might have a strategy, but you need to fine tune it as you go. I'll give you an example. Sometimes we're working on a policy at Meta, and, like, a few weeks ago, we were working on something around eating disorders. And you think, "oh, let's talk to, you know, medical professionals who deal with these issues or psychologies" then you realize you need to talk to young people who might be affected by this. Or creators who are creating content around, you know, having a certain body type and having a certain, you know, body image and all that.
So once you do that, once you maybe talk to a few people, you come back to say, "you know, I need to relook at my strategy." I think to answer to him you know, your strategy, of course, you might have to frame who you want to talk to. First of all, understanding the problem, identifying who it is you want to talk to. Maybe lay out the different formats of the engagements. Is it going to be in person? Are you going to do virtual engagement? What resources do you need? Do you need, like, what budget do you need? Or do you need not a budget? The people you're talking to, are they willing to talk to you? Are they able to talk to you? Are they willing but unable? Maybe they don't have air time to talk to you. I think there a quite of few things you might look at. And the last thing I think you mentioned is measurement. And looking at how do you measure the results of your engagement.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. We'll resume with the questions. Sorry.
>> AUDIENCE: Hi. Can you hear me? Good. Good. Good morning! Or good afternoon for those online, in case they're chiming in from somewhere in the afternoon.
I come from the Gambia. And there was an issue for the Bill called to be amended. A lot of people from the local communities and from the urban areas, as well, they came out and had, I think, about a week or two. It was the country was in uproar. They didn't want the Bill amended. Some wanted the bill to be, you know, just out. And it kind of called on to show how people, when they're concerned about something, when they understand what it is, they push for it. And so we've had the Data Protection Bill drafted since 2019. We're in 2024 now. It's been five years. So we don't have that kind of uproar, that kind of concern from Civil Society, from those students, young people, from the academia, or anything like that that much concerned like they were with the FGM. This is an important issue, as well. I think data it is an important issue. The context is in in such a way people don't understand data. It's important it needs to be protected and what measures are to be put in place to ensure there's inclusive data policy that we're talking about here. So what can the various stakeholders, the policy makers, the youth, the big tech companies, academia, and government do to ensure that people have a deeper and more concise understanding of data. It's important and things like that. What can they do collaboratively or the individual levels to build that understanding within the community.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much for your question. I believe some of the answer to the question has been given. From the floor, I'll let the panelists. Maybe starting with Suzanne, to tell us what can the country do for the citizens to be aware? To be sensitized about such issues in such a way that they feel concern or they react. Suzanne, please.
>> SUZANNE EL AKABAOUI: I'm sorry I won't open my video. I'm having internet issues.
>> MODERATOR: The citizens is challenging for the population to react to some issues, if they're not aware of the subject. If they don't know what is going on. And and we know data is important. Data privacy is important. What can be done by, the question was, what can be done by the different stakeholders to ensure that the population, the citizens, are sensitized. Aware of the data security issues, data privacy issues.
>> SUZANNE EL AKABAOUI: We used to have relationships between human beings that see each other. And now with digital transformation, we are sharing our data with people we don't know. And the fact that we don't know the risks associated with such sharing is what is an actual problem.
Because if we understand the risks of misuse, the value of personal data and how it is has become a valuable asset to the citizens and the businesses. It then becomes embedded in the culture and inherent in our day to day actions. So governments, mainly, the role would be to raise awareness on various aspects. Raise awareness about the rights to citizens. Raise awareness about the mishandling of personal data. Putting in place a proper taxonomy of risks is important. Having scenarios of the risks associated with the misuse of data shared with the citizens. So they understand the importance of protecting their personal data and the value of their data. And how to ask what will be done with the data. It's important. It's mainly done through education. It takes a long time. There will be an important cultural shift associated with this. Most African countries are rural countries, and they feel closer when they share their data. Now we're putting them in a context where most of the services are moving to a digital space. Where they don't know what is happening and whether the data will end up being with.
So it's important to raise awareness. It's important, also, to give a lot of responsibility and accountability to the companies and controllers and processers about the importance of properly handling data.
Governments should emphasize the value of data as an asset nap is worthy of protection. Like any other asset a company would have. That it gives a competitive edge when there's a security of personal data. People will be more encouraged to deal with those who have sound personal data practices. So cascading down methodologies on controllers and processers on how to handle the data and how to secure it and how to see the value will encourage them to implement those practices and internal policies that allow such protection.
And the, in parallel, of course, raising awareness. Including in curricular for school students. University students. The importance of personal data and personal data protection. This is, also, a multi stakeholder approach. And the involvement of all stakeholders, including youth, is very important. In Egypt, we work a lot with the Ministry of Youth in trying to find solutions so that they are interested in reading privacy policies and understanding their rights. So it's important that governments work on various pillars to achieve the target and purpose of raising awareness about the risks. About opportunities. And the value of data.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much, Suzanne.
Any other panelists who would like to add to the response?
>> PARTICIPANT: Yes. I would like to add on what Suzanne was raising. Raising awareness and government needs to maintain transparency throughout the whole process. Maintaining. So because most of the time, you find that citizens lack information. Or some information is withheld for reasons or so that we do not know. So transparency is key. And the other one is collaboration. As government is raising awareness, they need to collaborate with other stakeholders. So this collaboration is very important. They can go where, you know, into raising awareness together with government. Where government cannot reach Civil Society or reach academia. And then the other one is also as they do awareness raising, it should be done on platforms and channels that can reach all the citizens. You know, because, for instance, I'll give an example of what government in Uganda did when they were introducing digital ID. We didn't know much about the digital ID. We had "you need a national ID for you to be able to access." But we're not told what are the benefits or the risks? Why we need to register. And many people misinterpreted. It it came at a time when they were nearing elections. They're going to renew our national IDs when we are nearing elections in 2016.
[ Coughing ]
It being done just like the other time.
[ Coughing ]
so explaining to the citizens, you know, why are we doing this. So that time all of misunderstood the exercise. Wanting to track the voters within the country. So people were saying, "I'm not registering." And now people are suffering because of their own information they gave during the exercise.
So the transparency is key. Involving other stakeholders, but, also, the different channels. You know, because if you use a radio and then my mother in the village doesn't have a radio. Or if you use trucks which are going around the city, with megaphones. What about those people deep down in the village? How will they get the information?
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much, Bonita. We know transparency, collaboration with the different stakeholders, and making sure that the channels and the platform used can reach other cities. Anything else to add?
>> PARTICIPANT: I think the topic is a positive one. I would like to tell the many here, in a position of privilege. And we should not be very dismissive in terms of the things we do. In our offices, when these policies are brought up. We're not dismissive of what they're talking about. I think that is often neglected because of how gender norms are.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. Yes, please. Sorry. May I, as well, suggest you present yourself before you ask the question. So we know present yourself briefly.
>> AUDIENCE: I'll be quick. I hope I'm audible. Good morning, everyone. My name is Chris from Nigeria. I think I'm here to learn. I want to know, we've been talking about data policies. And I think what I want to find out. We're not lacking in policies. In fact, we have a good repository of policies. But we always have issues. I'm speaking from my own constituency, which is Africa. We have issues when it comes to implementation. We need mechanisms so we can use and improve how we implement the policies. You come up with a good policy. Yes. You want to include women and all of that and everything. But two years, three years down the line, it's the same result. It's the same cycle. Is there something we to improve how we implement the policies.
The second one, which I have an issue, is data interpretability within Africa. How are we sharing data? How secure is it? Can we share it among ourselves within the African continent? It's an issue which I think I want to learn and know more. How can I help with this? So I can take something back home. Thank you.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much for your question. We'll take the second one and quickly have an answer.
>> AUDIENCE: Good morning to all. Good day everywhere. I'm from Liberia. I represent the Liberian Internet Governance Forum. My question to the middle lady, please. As I heard you talk about partnership programmes, inclusive stakeholder strategies. My issue goes to the idea. The global brand in terms of data as data. The data you have at your disposal. What measure or what not just because I want to commend you for the programme. Beyond that, what programme or what project do you have in mind in terms of sustainability that look at the issue of protecting policy for underrepresented groups and underserved countries. For me, I speak, also, for the region in the MRU. We do not see programmes that affect your users in terms of data. Because if you look at it, there are so many things that people need to be capacitied toward it. And when you talk about gender inclusive data future, how is the future protected when a lot of content that make you get the money. And from the people who are not even seen by you. That is my issue. Thank you so much.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much for your questions. So we'll have an attempt to answer to all of them, before we get kicked out of the room.
Yeah. We have exactly five minutes to finish the session.
>> PARTICIPANT: So we have five minutes. And we can always discuss later. So good to hear from you. We have a team responsible. I'll be happy to introduce you to that team, as well. I think, yes, local partnerships and the example that I give is just one of the many things that we want to that we're working on. But as you said, I think it's so difficult to just say in these big forums you're not seeing something at the local level. And it'll be great, I think, for you to meet with some of our local teams, as well. Yeah.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you. There was a question about the implementation of the policies. So one of the participants said he didn't think we lack policies but lack the implementation. Any of the panelists like to take that?
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you. Oftentimes the importance of the sessions are the laws or, yeah. Some of the policy communication around it is lacking. I know in 2023, Nigeria implemented a Data Protection Act. But the policy communication around it. So the average person using the data frameworks is not [?] Africa has come a long way. So it's still a work in progress. And data interoperability [?] but I think as a continent Africa the issue has to be trust. The issue has to be trust. We need to build on trust. Most importantly is the policy communication around it. How do people trust governments? To exchange data and somewhere. I think we're getting somewhere. Thank you very much.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you. Any other?
>> BONITA: To add to what has been said. I think the AU is doing a great job of getting different African countries to comply on the protection and privacy and all the other issues.
Like said, there are steps we are taking. We have moved and we are somewhere. We are continuing to move. Maybe by the end of some 20 years, we'll be somewhere. But we are and, also, African countries are taking into consideration benchmarking and learning from each other. Yeah. So different countries are learning from it.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. Just to reemphasize what you said, the work is in progress. We are doing the steps. But eventually we'll be there. So, indeed, we may not be lacking the policies and the regulations, but you know, even in the way we develop them, we are now including implementation plans, which means that we have the intent to have them implemented, domesticated with, and potentially enforced. That's one. This is the work we're doing. We work at the government agency and implement the policies.
We're making progress. We talk about harmonization. It may be an ideal concept, but we are looking into aligning policies regionally. Aligning them continently. There's projection to have the system, the technology, all that to communicate. So before we get kicked out of the room, I would like each of my distinguished panelists, maybe too say a word to resume our conversation today. One word. We'll start with Suzanne and Victor online and then move to the room.
>> SUZANNE EL AKABAOUI: Thank you. It's difficult to say one word. I think that the main word I like is "education." I believe education is the key to understanding. To securing. To critically think. It's important that we keep raising awareness and educating peopling people about their rights, duties, and responsible them to act soundly.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much. Victor?
>> VICTOR ASILA: We train for the world. So we train
>> MODERATOR: One word.
>> VICTOR ASILA: We train for the world. Skills.
>> PARTICIPANT: Collaboration.
>> PARTICIPANT: Multi stakeholder.
>> PARTICIPANT: Inclusivity.
>> MODERATOR: Thank you. Thank you very much for today. Thank you if our distinguished panelists. Thank you for taking the time to be with us for the conversation we had on the subject. On the topic. This is also how we raise awareness. We talk about it. We discuss it
we say some things we have heard a thousand times, but, you know, in French, we say
[ Speaking non English language ]
So repetition is the model. I would like to thank my participants on site. Thank you for your attention. And for your participation to the conversation. Have a good day! Bye. I would like to invite the room to have a picture, before we get kicked out of the room. Thank you.