The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> Hello. My name is (?). I hope everyone can hear me.
I'm from Tanzania. I'm also an enjoy, founder of Stemhar (?).
This is to have meaningful dialogue between participants and policy experts as we explore the sections between principles.
Our goal is to share insights, highlight challenges, and identify opportunities to create a robust digital framework for Africa.
First of all, just to give an overview, we'll have an introduction for the speakers here, and then we'll have the two speakers here who will give just a brief contribution on the topic that we're going to be discussing. And then, after that, isle open the floor to the participants. Then we can have different areas that we are going to be discussing.
Then, in the end, we're going to close by having a summary of key takeaways and next steps.
So now I open the floor to my panellists here. If you are going to introduce yourself in the first round, then I will open the floor for you to contribute.
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: Thank you very much. I'm a Senator from (audio is distorted) interrelation. The Kenyan Senate on the Parliamentary Union.
I'm also a member of the African Parliament Network on Internet governance. I think I can speak about that a little bit later, but that's who I am.
Thank you very much.
>> Thank you very much.
>> I'm a member of I sit on the group for ICT, labour, public service, and others.
>> Now, I would like to welcome the floor to you, Catherine. Tell us how the current state of the digital frameworks in Africa, and what is the role done to support the development and growth in Africa.
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: Thank you very much. Now, that's a good question, asking about how are the digital frameworks in Africa.
Now, Africa currently has laws guiding all sectors, but, as you are aware, digital technology is a technology that's cross cutting. It's going to be relevant in every sector, and it has evolved much faster than policy has evolved.
As it has evolved, we have national executives that are trying to do something about it, but parliaments world over not just Africa are lagging behind in the sense that as policies are met, as those who work in digital technology engage largely with executive governments, and then the parliaments are now playing catch up. And the legislative process usually takes a lot of time.
It means somebody, the government, will bring in a law, and the legislative process will take time, sometimes a year or even more, and a private bill will come and address a particular issue.
So you will find that currently because of the levels of competences of parliaments, which is low and I believe this is world over the competence of parliaments on digital quality concerns are low, and because of that, the legal frameworks on digital technology, matters are limited in many countries.
So if you look at Africa, there is a variation. You will find that Tanzania will have different laws. Kenya will have different laws. South Africa will have different laws.
For instance, we have countries that have data protection laws. We have others that don't have any. We have countries that have access to information laws. Others don't have any.
So that is why when we started realising the magnitude and the importance of actually engaging as parliaments on issues of parliamentary policy on digital technology, we formed the African Parliament Network precisely to share our views across the board and to agree on the best ways we can actually share experiences, learn from each other.
So APG (phonetic) is members who are passionate about trying to do policy on Internet governance. We have come together we are now looking to do capacities for our members.
We are now looking to developing what we are calling a modern law, quote/unquote. And a modern law is just about getting in place a standard minimum, minimums that we think would make sense for the purpose of legislation around digital governance but bearing in mind that legislation is across board. So we want to learn. We want to engage in forums like the IGF, ICANN, and any other so that, as parliamentarians, that we can contribute in our debates and be part of the solution in accelerating any law that would facilitate the proper facilitation of growth in Internet and digital technology whereas provide the safeties and security required.
>> That's the platform for parliamentarians in engaging in these digital works.
Coming to you, what are the unique challenges we have in Africa when it comes to shaping policy across the continent? Are there any current policies in Africa?
>> Thank you. I think there's a lot of challenges. She's highlighted quite a few. In my view, for most of the laws that were expected to be put in place, most of them, they come in premodeled from western countries, from where ever, as opposed to what Africa is supposed to be doing.
Right now, we're talking about (?) Redoing whatever the system is now that we're going into AI and digital policies. So my take is what we need to do right now is as much as we can do a literal freeze, now we need to start getting in all stakeholders. Africa should be put on the forefront of whatever plannings that are there as opposed to getting whatever is done yeah, I think that's basically my take on the challenge that we have. We get things that are already done, and now we cannot adopt to them because they are not modeled for what Africa is doing.
>> Okay. Thank you very much, Honorable.
I wanted this session to be most engaging and interactive. And now I will open this floor to the participants, both online and onsite here.
The discussion is going to be on three pillars. The first pillars we're going to be discussing is on legislation. The second is collaboration and multistakeholder engagement, as Honorable has said.
And then the last bill we're going to be discussing is on the Africa unique challenges and opportunities.
So now I'm going to start with the first pillar, which is registration.
My question to you, my participants, is: How can African Parliamentarians ensure inclusivity and innovation?
I can pass the mic to you.
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: She meant reference to the multistakeholder engagement. My view is that this is the one area where, as a legislator, I cannot purport to know what is right and just prepare a bill and take it to parliament. This is one area where we need greater consultation among all affected stakeholders to define for ourselves what inclusion means.
From the statistics we were given in the open plenary and from this forum, I think you would have realised that Africa has the least connectivity and also the most expensive. So access is quite limited for Africa.
So, as parliament, we need to start asking ourselves, one, what should the role of government be in facilitating greater access? What can we do as parliaments in that role? Now, parliaments have the role of representation, of legislation, of oversight, and we also have authority over budgetary allocation.
So I think if we define for ourselves what is digital public infrastructure and what role government can play in that, the parliaments can help to invest to deploy more resources towards facilitating digital public infrastructure across the countries. That's in order to have greater coverage, and we must deliberately start picking the data that will tell us who is unconnected, who is underconnected, whether it is women, whether it is senior citizens, whether it's those in the rural areas, whether it is the poor, and define solutions but put budgetary allocations to make sure we get that.
My view is if you facilitate it, as government, the digital public structure, then we leave to rest to the private sector and other stakeholders to actually move with it.
But, similarly, for us to do that policy, we need to understand from the stakeholders the on the key needs. So, as we make this legislation, we also need the find a way of not just moving us as the executive alone, we need to find the ways in which to get the experts to contribute and divide us on what is good regulation and what is bad regulation so we're able to facilitate it.
That's my view on that.
>> Thank you so much, Honorable.
For me, I like the point where you mention about data. For me, in my country, these are serious issues. There are some areas that we still do not know to what extent has the Internet penetrated in certain areas.
Even when the government is trying to help those areas, they do not know what specific area, how much resources do we need to invest in a specific area for us to help in providing Internet access.
Do we have any contributions now here?
>> I'm a member of parliament from Zimbabwe and a member of APG (phonetic).
I think one of the easiest ways is to make sure the legal and policy framework is updated to the level that it accommodates, especially in terms of making it obligatory for the state to set up the necessary infrastructure to increase access, especially to the Internet.
I have in mind our rural populations that are normally excluded. Internet access is a big issue for them. Also, mobile, Internet facilities in some rural areas so that people can access the Internet.
Also, that there can be fight to make sure that the budget allocation is increased in such a way
(Audio is cutting in and out)
>> to give support to those who are initially excluded in having access to the Internet.
In Zimbabwe, there's the data that's traditionally been expensive. Although, I need to consider that a license was given to Starlink. For the average citizen in Zimbabwe, especially those in local communities and also in rural communities (audio is distorted)
(No discernible speaker)
(Audio is distorted)
>> We need to increase the minstrel
(Captioner has no audio)
>> I would include the minister of (audio is distorted) thank you so much.
>> Thank you so much. Do we have another contribution that someone would like to contribute before we move to the second pillar?
Let me check with online. Do we have any online participant that wants to contribute?
Okay. I don't have any hand raised. So I guess we can move to the second pillar.
So the second pillar is on collaborations and multistakeholder engagement. So we know that collaboration is the key to impactful digital policies.
So now my question is how can parliamentarians engage with technologists and civil societies and private sectors to ensure that policies are both practical and inclusive?
How can parliamentarians engage with technologists and civil societies and private sectors to ensure that policies are both practical and inclusive?
>> There's hostility (audio is distorted) this is where we have to if you find each other and say, as parliamentarians and as developers, as people who are there are for consumers, that we find a common ground where we say (?) Law. It is intended to be oppressed by the other, but it's rather to benefit everybody across the board.
As lawmakers in parliament, I think most of the time, the world is open to receiving
(Captioner has lost room audio)
>> and we give back to them what is most relevant to the public. I think that's where we need to find each other. Inclusivity in everything we do.
>> Thank you very much.
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: Can I add?
>> Yes.
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: When it comes to multistakeholder engagement, one of the things we found out at the interparliamentary union working on science and technology is we're heavily engaged with scientists. So parliaments have various committees, but we are yet to find a parliament that has a committee on science and technology.
They are doing their thing, innovating, moving ahead, and parliament is making policies that sometimes impact them, but we hardly have forums where you have parliamentarians and scientists meeting and talking.
And what we are saying in IPU and that's now developing a chatter on the ethics of science and technology. What we're saying is it's important now for parliament to deliberately find the scientists and technocrats within their countries so as we do policies, we are able to factor things that are contributing to science and technology, but we are also able to engage on the ethical issues of human rights so that the science, as the innovation happens, the science does not harm human life.
So one of the things we need to do or one of the most important multistakeholders that we need to engage with, as parliaments, are the scientists and the technocrats.
The principle for public participation is a key principle for parliament. As they pass laws to conduct public participation
(Audio is cutting in and out)
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: so if meaningful participation is done by the parliamentary teams, as they pass legislation and policy, it means that we're then able to have that collaboration.
But there is also a trait that sometimes when we call for public participation, you cannot blame us for not taking on what the youth have done when we have advertised for a view on a draft bill on ICT and the youth have not sent in any memorandum.
The women have not sent in any memorandum.
A particular group has not sent in any memorandum.
So it's not just the parliament but even other stakeholders must be ready to do the homework and to be able to, when we want to pass a law, to bring in a petition and say in this law, we cannot see a clause that's including women. To point out that it's going to be instructive to the growth of innovation.
>> Wow. Thank you so much, Honorable.
My take from your contribution is, first, engagement. Like, engage the stakeholders. Parliamentarians need to engage with the technical and the scientists.
You wanted to add? You wanted to add another point?
>> I think one of the ways that
(Audio very low)
>> What happened?
>> One of the ways in which parliament can improve or increase access to engaging other stakeholders, especially local communities and the groups for, let's say, disability, for women, for youth, and so on, is to accept the traditional methods of meeting are no longer enough.
We may say people must submit papers and petitions. There's 10 public meetings, but that is not enough. A lot of people now, after being engaged using the new media technologies so parliaments must invest in communication teams Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and TikTok TikTok is where the young people are. They have to have a staff member who is youthful enough who engages young people for views through messages on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.
Telegram popular. We need to go to where the people are, and then we'll be able to access them easily. If we just do the traditional methods, it won't work.
Also, communicate with radio stations. We can use them, also, to have live sessions where people can even phone in. It increases our ability to engage the communities.
Thank you so much.
>> All right. I hope you can hear me. I can't hear myself, but I hope you can hear me.
I think my take to you is look at our current status, our current needs, how much resources we have, and then utilise them to reach our people.
Like the social media, if we want to engage with the young people, we have to look at where young people are now, which is the social media and then engage them.
Do we have any other contribution?
Yes?
>> I'm a member of parliament it's working? So for me, as I know the work in our department, the major work, we work in commission. The technical work is done in commission before we go on the vote process. So the commission work is normally open to the public, but the problem we have is the public is not informed when and what we are commissioned. Even us, ourselves, as members of the department I'm a member of the Commission, but I'm not informed when the (audio is distorted) Commission are doing their work. Even if I'm allowed to participate, I don't get the information.
So, first of all, we have to make it transparent.
We have to show the public what we are doing, when we are doing. This Commission is sitting on which law. So anyone who is interested will get the information.
When we're working on the commission, we have the expert who helps us to understand the law but they don't give us really genuine ideas. They don't even challenge us as their support. But if the information of our work, of our calendar, is public, then those people who are rarely interested on those topics can come and join and participate and have those discussions.
Sometimes it happens. Sometimes people come and really challenge us. And then (?) Based on the input they receive from those ones. I think to improve the collaboration, it's better to make our working calendar public and allow and inform that everyone is allowed to come and contribute.
>> Wow. Thank you so much. So transparency.
Yes, Honorable Catherine.
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: Now, a very important point I did not raise, when it comes to Internet, Internet does not have borders. So even as we plan to do legislation, legislation is localised to a country. We must start thinking out of the box to see what we need to do not just in your own country but what we need to do regionally and also globally to factor the legislative requirements that can deal with the fact that open Internet means there are no borders. Therefore, how do we deal with the issue of passing a law of a situation that's not just local? So we will need to allow innovation to happen, but when it comes to passing laws that must protect human rights, must ensure safety, must ensure security, we need to start thinking out of the box.
For instance, when you have the abuse or child abuse facilitated through Internet just to use the example of that as one of the harms that are coming with (?) On the Internet, we need to start dealing with the out of the box. How do you deal with the (?) Is in America, Asia, and the child who has been molested is in Tanzania. How does the criminal law protection for such a situation look like? So we need to look at a law for Zimbabwe and (?). That's what we're look at with APG. So what are we doing to ensure what we have in innovation in our own specific countries may be different, will be different, but we must factor the fact that Internet does not have borders, and that is a conversation that IGF, the United Nations, the AU, it's something they need to start thinking about to guide.
For instance, in IPU, we're dealing with a chapter on ethics, the ethics of science and technology so that we are then able to grow on minimums that can ensure such protections.
>> Thank you so much, Honorable, for adding that point.
Because of time, allow me, please, to move to the third pillar, which is on Africa unique challenges and opportunities.
Pillar three, Africa's Unique Challenges and Opportunities, Geopolitical Fabrication: Africa's diverse nations face unique challenges in shaping interconnectivity. We'll explore how geopolitical factors influence digital policies. Inclusive Policies: Africa's growth trajectory demands policies that empower all citizens.
>> My name is Kagun (phonetic). Can you hear me? I was a parliamentary member of China. Now I serve to the world of (?) Engineering organisations. We think engineering capacity, it's key factor for the development, especially in Africa to raise the big opportunity of digital technology to develop Africa continent.
So the World Federation of Engineering Organisations is working on an initiative, 10 year long initiative, Code of Engineering Capacity Building for Africa, supported by UNESCO and so on and so forth.
We're going to launch this programme next year in Africa. Perhaps we're starting from Kenya, South Africa, and then we're going to build a number of engineer capacity building centres in African countries. So we really need your support because, in China, our experience is that to develop a country, we need hard and soft site. For the hard part, we need infrastructure. We need to invest in infrastructure, especially public infrastructure. It's so important.
And the capacity building and education should also be emphasised.
Look, if more investment into these domain and to build the capacity to make full use of those infrastructure to make economic growth.
So I just spoke about this, and we need your support.
Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. Good morning to the members and everyone here.
You know, with Africa, there are very unique challenges when we talk about digital transformation.
The good thing about it, the African Union has created the African Digital Strategy for 2030. It tells member states, in clear terms, what we need to do.
The key thing in the area is the digital infrastructure that. Must be in the forefront because any building that doesn't have a good foundation, it's bound to fail.
And this critical infrastructure is fundamental. It's at the bottom.
Women have to ensure that those critical infrastructures are in place, and everything else is the building block that can come on top of that.
The other is about education, what my colleague has just spoken about. We must look at the way we teach in our curriculum. Even if you have the structure, and the curriculum (?) We will not get there very quickly. So the infrastructure we built (?) So that those students are graduating (?) Et cetera can actually help to align everything so we can get to where we need to get to. So the capacity building, the education, is crucial.
The next is collaboration. We live in a world where collaboration is necessary. My colleague previously talked about security, but security is everybody's business. You cannot secure Kenya if you live in Tanzania. You cannot live in Tanzania and live in Namibia.
We collaborate with our neighbour in case something happens in Gambia.
Because of the law, Gambia and Senegal how do we ensure that we work together.
This is where we, as members of parliament, have to take a key interest. The region you work in, the region that you ensure will actually have that, cross regional and intercontinental.
We have the AFRIPOL is active but they can prosecute.
>> Thank you.
Let me see if I have contribution from online. I don't. No contribution?
So since there's no contribution on that, now I would like us to have a closing takeaway session. Right? Yeah.
So we had a long discussion. We discussed about a lot of things, and we have the three pillars that we had different questions that we discussed on. So now I'm opening again the floor to the audience.
So what are the key takeaways that you have taken away from today's discussion? Something that you want to take back at your home country, something that you have learned, something that you wanted to take to your organisation? What is something you have learned from the discussion?
Can I get an assistant to pass the mic?
>> What I learned is that, as a parliament, we have to know that when you're dealing with Internet governance, we're not putting law just for our own pleasure. We are putting laws that will impact other people's lives. We have to make sure we are getting that input. We need to be the one to make the first step toward them. Go and look for them, not just working in our room and waiting for them to come to us. We have to make that effort to look for them to make sure that we have all of their input from them, and that will be about putting in place a better governance that will be better for all of us because even if we are the parliament (audio is distorted) we are young, we are woman, we are also part of that world. So it's better for us to be the one to make the first step and to go toward those other stakeholders and to make sure we get their input before putting before working on the law.
>> Thank you. That was have very good takeaway.
>> SUSAN DOSSI: Just to mention, we really need to collaborate more because if we do it alone, we will not get there. As Africans, we need to have one voice. We need to work with other stakeholders to make sure that we come up with laws with which will really help us as Africa.
Maybe just to mention that most of the times, parliamentarians are left aside. When it comes to maybe coming up with laws, we are at the end, at the receiving end. When we receive that law, when we maybe go and do consultations, it's at the end of everything.
One time, we had a conversation with the Ministry where we have done this already, and what we just want to hear from you, as members of parliament, is your take. They have done the benchmarking and done everything. At tend, they come to us and want our input. Even whatever we can say at this point, one, it's to be taken seriously.
We have to work together from the start up to the end so that whatever we input in these laws that we pass in parliament, we are able to know that this is what we are passing.
It's not good to come to parliament, and then say we're passing this law. At the end of the day, we're the ones that do oversight. At the end of the day, compliance is not there. People are not complying. They are not doing anything. They are not following the laws we made. Even us, as members of parliament, we are (?) In the development of those roles. So we really need to work together to operate with other stakeholders and have one voice as a team.
Thank you.
>> So engagement and consultations from the beginning, engaging the parliamentarians.
So anything you want to say before we close?
>> CATHERINE MUMMA: Thank you very much. A number of things I want to say. One, all sectors have laws that are currently guiding the sectors, but with the digital technology, my view is all those sector laws would have to be reviewed. For instance, now telemedicine, the current public health law in Kenya provides for all matters of medicine, but it has not contemplated how liability will look like when a consultant in Tokyo is providing services to the clans. So we need to look at that. It is something with criminal we've already had cross border collaboration around criminal matters. But crimes committed through the Internet, we have not thought through that properly.
So usually you have agreements where you agree with country X on dealing with each other, but our laws have not yet provided that. So one of the things that was happening in Kenya, even the judiciary has to be trained on how to innovative and adjust and adapt to deal with crimes that are committed over the Internet.
So what I'm saying is that with the digital technology, we will need adjustments in policies across board.
I like that we need capacities to be enhanced through Africa, not just within the curriculum but with other communities. Even basic digital skills, we will need to provide that basic education, for instance, to the traditional mother in the village who is selling vegetables but is using the mobile to receive the money and is being paid a commission on something that is very small.
So if we stopped doing communities around the Internet to give that education to the mother, to the senior citizens, we then, one, will grow the economies. We will also protect them from local frauds that actually undermine them.
We need to start lacking at the exploitation of we have young people in Africa being paid $2 an hour, and they are doing exactly the same job of somebody in America being paid 20 or $30 for the same thing. So we need to start bringing in ethics so we don't have exploitation of the fact that the African or other countries labour regimes are not good.
So my view is there's plenty for us to do and plenty for us to learn, and we hope that (audio is distorted) as you bring in parliamentarians and give them capacities, it will help.
(Captioner is picking up production audio)
>> Anything you want to say? You're good?
So I would like to thank each one of you, including my online participants, for engaging actively in this session. I'm looking forward to seeing you around in other sessions and engage with you.
Have a great day.